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Delta In Chapter 11 By Sept '05

Beer Guzzler

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There are rumors flying around Mecca (ATL) that Sept. '05 will be Delta's Bankruptcy filing. Why? Oil/Fuel Costs & No Government pension relief..

May numbers will be in soon. United posted a $93 million loss.. Where will DL be?

Hold on boys (& girls) it is gonna be a wild ride..
 
Hopefully, those high fuel prices will soon cause the creditors to finally pull the plug on UAL, allowing DL (and the other legacies) some breathing room on domestic fares. 😀
 
FWAAA said:
Hopefully, those high fuel prices will soon cause the creditors to finally pull the plug on UAL, allowing DL (and the other legacies) some breathing room on domestic fares.        😀
[post="279358"][/post]​


You are still under the delusion that Legacy Carriers drive fares. Wrong.

The fares are being driven by Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran and other Low Cost Carriers.

Losing UAL or other legacy carriers will not stem that tide.
 
It would help the other carriers more if american airlines went out of business as they are larger. What a stupid, selfish attitude! I fly a lot on both AA and United. They are both quality airlines unlike several others that I am forced to fly on occasionally. I wish their employees all the best and one day maybe this cut-throat attitude that management feeds on will go away.
 
kiowa said:
It would help the other carriers more if american airlines went out of business as they are larger. What a stupid, selfish attitude! I fly a lot on both AA and United. They are both quality airlines unlike several others that I am forced to fly on occasionally. I wish their employees all the best and one day maybe this cut-throat attitude that management feeds on will go away.
[post="279401"][/post]​

kiowa,

Thanks for the travels on UA. We do appreciate your patronage. It is a shame that the other carriers employess would rather see UA go out of buisness to try and cure their ill versus accepting the fact the industry has changed and they are in for some reality checks in the near future.

Cheers
 
N924PS said:
You are still under the delusion that Legacy Carriers drive fares. Wrong.

The fares are being driven by Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran and other Low Cost Carriers.

Losing UAL or other legacy carriers will not stem that tide.
[post="279374"][/post]​

You are under a delusion that Low Cost Carriers drive air fares. Wrong.

You are under a delusion that you know anything about why tickets are priced where they are.

Fares are too low for anyone's tastes because of domestic overcapacity.

Time for UAL and USAir to go out of business so that the others may survive.

You are also under a delusion that I work for AMR or any of its subs. Wrong.

I mean no harm to any UAL employees, (or USAir), but it is time for the weak (and bankrupt) to fail so that others may survive.
 
FWAAA said:
I mean no harm to any UAL employees, (or USAir), but it is time for the weak (and bankrupt) to fail so that others may survive.
[post="279411"][/post]​


Your sincerity is a bit blemished. Mean no harm but go out of buisness? Can you list the bills to vendors that UA has not paid? If you prefer to discuss the PBGC we can tackle that issue also. The PBG does not get it funds from the public tax dollar. (see www.pbgc.org ) The result of shuttering UAL will also send the pensions to the PBGC. Same problem as now but you add 60K employees to the unemployment roster.

If you feel the retirement issue is so large then why not mandate that LUV, JBLU, AMW and all of the other carriers also guarantee a pension to its employees? It you mandate that UAL do it then you need to mandate that all do it.

Finally, the other major carriers have for quite sometime used the "UA is dead" argument. Even Bethune said so himself when we entered BK. Now Bethune admits that he wanted to buy UA when he was at CO and talked down the chances of survival to get a better price. When that did not work he has now partnered with Greenwald and TPG to make a bid if the judge allows outside offers.

Your headline approacch to understanding the situation in the industry is a bit weak and could use a good dose of reality and understanding. Couple that with a background in the airline industry and you might just grasp what is taking place. The major carriers are flying aircraft at LF's never imagined 20 years ago. There is not an overcapacity in the market, there is a lack of revenue and yield. The demand for travel is high the money derived from demand is not.

It is airlines like DL and NW that sell their product below cost hoping to drive others out of the market that has landed the industry in a tailspin. Glad to see DL and NW enjoying the spoils of their ill conceived plans. It appears NW still thinks there is reenue sharing in the industy with there latest plans to torpedo labor and allow a strike.
 
"Your sincerity is a bit blemished."

Boy is THAT calling the kettle black.

How sincere is the statement

"Glad to see DL and NW enjoying the spoils of their ill conceived plans." ??? :shock:


Why don't you just go pound sand, pal.
 
FWAAA & N924PS -
It's both. There is no question that the Big 6 would be driving fares upward if it weren't for the growth of the LCCs, therefore the LCCs are in control of pricing right now.

If a large carrier, such as UAL or DL, were to liquidate, that would certainly place more demand on seat availability and drive up prices - at least for the short term - but it would be a mistake to think that the LCCs and the legacy carriers wouldn't rush into markets dominated by the liquidated carrier and add tons of new capacity in an effort to grab new customers and more market share. I believe the industry would be in the same position that it is now in just a matter of months. It could even be tougher in terms of price pressure if the LCCs scooped up a lot of that new market share.

I think the best hope for the industry is some sort of orderly consolidation of carriers and a drawing down of capacity by these carriers. Look at AWA's plans for UAIR. They're pulling out about 70 mainline aircraft, but not giving up many routes. Under that scenario, there are fewer seats, but there is no mad frenzy by other carriers starting new flights in most markets dominated by UAIR.
 
WNrforlife said:
"Your sincerity is a bit blemished."

Boy is THAT calling the kettle black.

How sincere is the statement

"Glad to see DL and NW enjoying the spoils of their ill conceived plans." ??? :shock:
Why don't you just go pound sand, pal.
[post="279457"][/post]​


It just appears that DL and NW have been circling the UA Executive offices with a ambulance waiting for the patient to die. Instead of working on the problems they had at hand they went on a death watch that so far has not occured. The patient also has been working quite hard to get its health back in order while the ambulance drivers ate Fat Burgers and smoked Camels. Now the patient is feeling a bit better and the ambulance drivers are starting to feel a "grabber" coming on. Better blame the patient for their heart attacks as it was in no way caused by their lifestyle.

With Simpleair and NW blocking all previous fare increases these two carriers have only contributed to their own demise.
 
magsau said:
It just appears that DL and NW have been circling the UA Executive offices with a ambulance waiting for the patient to die. Instead of working on the problems they had at hand they went on a death watch that so far has not occured. The patient also has been working quite hard to get its health back in order while the ambulance drivers ate Fat Burgers and smoked Camels. Now the patient is feeling a bit better and the ambulance drivers are starting to feel a "grabber" coming on. Better blame the patient for their heart attacks as it was in no way caused by their lifestyle.

With Simpleair and NW blocking all previous fare increases these two carriers have only contributed to their own demise.
[post="279469"][/post]​
There will be no demise. DAL has been executing a very aggressive recovery plan that includes alot more than employee paycuts. Will DAL run out of time before Chapter 11 is imminent? Possibly. But do not count out DAL or NWA..
 
magsau said:
kiowa,

Thanks for the travels on UA. We do appreciate your patronage. It is a shame that the other carriers employess would rather see UA go out of buisness to try and cure their ill versus accepting the fact the industry has changed and they are in for some reality checks in the near future.

Cheers
[post="279409"][/post]​

Magsau,

You are such a hypocrite. I can remember some of your posts over the last few years that wished exactly those same misfortunes on USAirways.

Not to mention your "it won't happen at UAL" mentality with regard to BK, pay cuts, loss of pension.
 
Beer Guzzler said:
There are rumors flying around Mecca (ATL) that Sept. '05 will be Delta's Bankruptcy filing. Why? Oil/Fuel Costs & No Government pension relief..

May numbers will be in soon. United posted a $93 million loss.. Where will DL be?

Hold on boys (& girls) it is gonna be a wild ride..
[post="279356"][/post]​


This from this morning ... $2.42 Billion due in Pension & Debt payments later this year...

Bankruptcy Looms
 
FWAAA said:
You are under a delusion that Low Cost Carriers drive air fares. Wrong.

Time for UAL and USAir to go out of business so that the others may survive.


Sorry, ain't gonna happen with US.

I mean no harm to any UAL employees, (or USAir


Yeah, right. :unsure: 🙄
[post="279411"][/post]​
 
This will be the final nail in the coffin for ol' Delta :up: :up: :up:

UPDATE 2-U.S. House panel approves pension reform
Thu Jun 30, 2005 06:53 PM ET
(Adds quotes, details of bill)
By Susan Cornwell

WASHINGTON, June 30 (Reuters) - Legislation to repair huge underfunding of U.S. corporate pensions and avoid a possible taxpayer bailout of the agency that insures them cleared the U.S. House Education and the Workforce Committee on Thursday.

Traditional pensions are underfunded by $450 billion, and the federal agency that insures them, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. (PBGC), is itself $23.3 billion in the red, swelled by recent pension defaults at bankrupt United Airlines(UALAQ.OB: Quote, Profile, Research) and others.

Lawmakers said they should impose stricter pension funding rules before more pensions default and the PBGC collapses.

"I think the effect of this bill over the next 10 to 20 years will prevent a meltdown at the PBGC," said Ohio Republican Rep. John Boehner, the bill's co-sponsor.

Modeled after a Bush administration measure, the bill requires companies to erase the shortfalls in their "defined benefit" pension plans and pay higher premiums to the PBGC.

But unlike the White House plan, the bill would phase in the funding requirements and premium increases over five years. Defending the differences, Boehner said he did not want to drive employers out of the pension system.

Defined benefit pensions, which have a fixed payout at retirement, cover 20 percent of workers, mainly in older industries like automobiles and airlines.

Lawmakers declined to include any specific aid for U.S. airlines, some of which say they may also default on their pensions if they do not get more help. But Boehner left the door open to add such relief later.

The measure could go to the floor of the House for a vote, but it could also be wrapped into a larger retirement package being drafted that includes changes to Social Security.

Democrats in both chambers have warned against combining corporate pension reforms, which have some bipartisan support, with the volatile Social Security issue.

The House pension bill seeks to eliminate the legal limbo around "cash balance" plans, a portable type of pension. These have faced legal uncertainty since a federal court ruled in 2003 against the plan of IBM (IBM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , saying it discriminated against older workers.

The bill set an age discrimination standard for all defined benefit pensions, and a new cash balance pension plan that embraces it would not be considered age discriminatory.

It also sets up a system for improving troubled pension plans that are maintained by more than one employer. It allows plan trustees to levy a surcharge of up to 10 percent on employers' contributions, and pare workers' benefits.

The legislation also allows pension plan administrators to provide investment advice to workers, as long as any potential conflicts of interest are disclosed.
 

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