Delta pilots give it up again

[Busdrvr]

I'm not saying that the company's figures are right, but we sure have nothing to counter it with...at least nothing that is being made widely public. Why is that?

In all honesty, I don't think it would get reported if ALPA released it. It makes better reading in so called financial journals to skew the data in favor of the company and to portray the issue as a failing of "greedy labor" vs an unbiased story. I'd expect it. After all, they cater to their readers. likewise, you won't see many articles in the ALPA rag that will say labor is the problem.

But let's cut thru the BS and look at the REAL numbers. The following link has the actual DAL contract payrates.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airline...a-200502248.htm

When calculating the "average", keep in mind that 777 and 767-400 are rather small parts of the total fleet, and also consider that the MAXIMUM a pilot can fly, by LAW is 1000 hours a year. Even is every pilot flew exactly 1000 hours a year, the average salary STILL wouldn't be $147K. Now consider those that either fly the minimum guarentee by bidding those lines, for personal or family reason, and also consider the number of folks who drop flying time to fly for the military for a week or so a month. DAL itself will point out that the average pilot only fly's 50 "hard hours" a month due to inefficient schedules on the part of management. Given the above factors, I'll bet the average pilot gets paid for 850-900 hours a year. Do the math. It ain't 147K.

 

[Ch. 12]

I'm not saying that the company's figures are right, but we sure have nothing to counter it with...at least nothing that is being made widely public. Why is that?

In all honesty, I don't think it would get reported if ALPA released it. It makes better reading in so called financial journals to skew the data in favor of the company and to portray the issue as a failing of "greedy labor" vs an unbiased story. I'd expect it. After all, they cater to their readers. likewise, you won't see many articles in the ALPA rag that will say labor is the problem.

But let's cut thru the BS and look at the REAL numbers. The following link has the actual DAL contract payrates.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airline...a-200502248.htm

When calculating the "average", keep in mind that 777 and 767-400 are rather small parts of the total fleet, and also consider that the MAXIMUM a pilot can fly, by LAW is 1000 hours a year. Even is every pilot flew exactly 1000 hours a year, the average salary STILL wouldn't be $147K. Now consider those that either fly the minimum guarentee by bidding those lines, for personal or family reason, and also consider the number of folks who drop flying time to fly for the military for a week or so a month. DAL itself will point out that the average pilot only fly's 50 "hard hours" a month due to inefficient schedules on the part of management. Given the above factors, I'll bet the average pilot gets paid for 850-900 hours a year. Do the math. It ain't 147K.

But given the fact that so much of your arguement has been the salary makes up for time sitting around, you must include per diem as well. I don't know the hours flown by pilot nor do I know the average seniority but I sure would think it is at the higher end at DL. Also...even if they fly only 50 "hard hours"...it looks like the guarantee is 65-70 hours. Again...I'd like to see more than just what a 12 year FO makes. I'm looking for an average and there isn't enough data there. Thanks for posting a portion of the info, though. I still think that DALPA would have said more by now. It doesn't matter if the media picks it up...they haven't even put out any press releases of their own disputing the company's numbers with their own figures. That is the main point I was making.

 

[B.O.B.]

I can't believe the pilots caved in again! It seems the pilots have jumped on the Delta Kool-Aid band wagon. :down:

 

[luvn737s]

It got to be a 100K a year job because it was a specific skill in demand. It got to be a 140k a year job thanks to unions - I won't argue that.

Let me also say that I feel for the pilots' plight. ALPA (and other airline unions) have really screwed the pooch when it comes to their membership. There is no mobility for their workforces and that kills their leverage at times like this. Skilled workers like pilots and mechanics can't move to healthy companies due to seniority rules. That doesn't exist for skilled labor anywhere else.

If I had stuck around at Delta my pay would have been lower than when I started (if you include the insurance premiums). One guy I know has been rolled back to 1992 pay. He is only sticking around for his pension, assuming that doesn't get killed.

So I know where you are coming from, but that doesn't justify actions that would result in tens of thousands of people losing their jobs just because they didn't want to work someplace anymore.

How many ways don't you get it, Dog? The job pays above what a freight dog in a 310 makes solely due to the efforts of the pilot's union. The specific skills are not appreciably above those of the 310 driver, however the responsibility and experience is.

If unions dictate a seniority system, why then does one exist at JetBlue or other non-union airlines, many of which went out of business.

The industry-average pay scales that non-union airlines use as the carrot and the end of a career-long stick only exists because some pilots were willing to walk away from a job paying within the top 3% of wage earners when those rates (and other peripherals) were threatened. The airlines' golden age saw many of the industries most brutal strikes. Finally when the die had been cast for the future of the airline business, the Lorenzo takeover of Eastern Airlines, those pilots stood up and walked away from one of the highest paying jobs in the country. To do anything less was to be a willing accomplice in the rape and murder of a once-proud profession.

Now the profession is being attacked by those who sat and learned at the feet of Lorenzo: Steenland, Tilton, Lakefield, and Grinstein. They have manipulated the bankruptcy laws in ways Lorenzo never dreamed. The tactic on the part of the pilots is to protect the paycheck, no matter how small. They think that sacrificing their jobs will not win the battle. The Eastern pilots knew that the battle had been lost and they weren't willing to sit by abd watch Lorenzo profit from the demise of their airline.

The airline pilots of today are a generation removed from the one's that stood up for what they believed in. They don't fully appreciate what was done to make this profession possible, so they all to easily sell it piecemeal. Hoping that the pendulum of influence will swing back to them someday in the future, these pilots hold the naieve belief that when better times return, so will their paychecks and pensions. What they don't grasp is that wholesale changes to the piloting profession are occurring that will make those levels of salary and benefits absurd. If the unions go along with managements who embrace a very-low margin high-volume business model that virtually demands low wages, then the battle is done. Wages will be wiped out. The promise of profit sharing will be hollow as the industry will be unable to create meaningful profits and the only those closest to the cash will benefit.

So, either all stops are pulled out in defense of arguably one of the best professions out there, or we lower our flag and yield the soil for which so many were willing to risk all.

 

[luv2fly]

Or be forced to actually schedule alot more efficiently like they should (and cut back service somewhat.) From what I read here about scheduling efficiency, I would guess that they could handle a sizeable exodus simply by having lines that are more amiable to BOTH flight crews and management. Maybe it just will take a kick in the pants to make that happen.

What have you read on scheduling efficiency?
It you truly understood DL's current scheduling you would know that all categories are grossly understaffed. Most line pilots are already flying in excess of 80 hours a month. The FAA annual limit is reached at approximately 83 hours per month. Any increase in hours would be a violation of FARs. Care to elaborate or were you just speculating again?

 

[luv2fly]

While I agree that "average COMPENSATION" often includes all of the rest, if the "average SALARY" numbers that are quoted by the company are so wrong, why then does DALPA not dispute them with their own figures and how they were derived? Until I see a counter figure, I only have the $147k-170k to go off of.

I'm not saying that the company's figures are right, but we sure have nothing to counter it with...at least nothing that is being made widely public. Why is that?

It really isn't that difficult. Go to airline pilotpay.com. Those figures are almost dead on, except now they are 14% in error. Figure any category you wish based on an average month of 80 to 82 hours. As I told you above, an 83 hour month would have a pilot reaching the FAR mandated 1000 maximum hours in a calendar year. Keep in mind that more than half of DL's 6300 pilots are FO's, and roughly 30% of DL's pilots have less than 10 years seniority. Take that into account as well when running your numbers for a twelve year 777 captain.
I think you will find that DL created those average salaries using last years preconcession rates. Makes for a good media soundbyte though.
Your assertion that there isn't enough information is obviously biased. The figures are right in front of your face, yet you choose to ingnore it.

 

[traderjake]

if the NW pilots and CAL pilots and UAL pilots and US pilots forced the issue, then maybe the unravelling of the pilot profession would be more than just a great media spectators blood sport.

People would walk across the terminal and buy a ticket on Southwest, Airtran, Jetblue, and Virgin Atlantic.

The guy on the street is not going to stay home and make nothing so that NW, DAL, UAL and US pilots can keep their pay and pensions.

Because of deregulation they don't have to.

 

[luvn737s]

People would walk across the terminal and buy a ticket on Southwest, Airtran, Jetblue, and Virgin Atlantic.

Amid the panic and hysteria, they would certainly try to.

 

[Busdrvr]

People would walk across the terminal and buy a ticket on Southwest, Airtran, Jetblue, and Virgin Atlantic.

The guy on the street is not going to stay home and make nothing so that NW, DAL, UAL and US pilots can keep their pay and pensions.

Because of deregulation they don't have to.

Actually, the ones with character will. If I've said it once, I've said it 1,000 times: Airtran, Jblu, and SWA WILL get the same pay as the majors, it's up to them to decide what that number will be. Goody for them, we got their pay rates instead of them getting ours. :down:

 

[Ch. 12]

It really isn't that difficult. Go to airline pilotpay.com. Those figures are almost dead on, except now they are 14% in error. Figure any category you wish based on an average month of 80 to 82 hours. As I told you above, an 83 hour month would have a pilot reaching the FAR mandated 1000 maximum hours in a calendar year. Keep in mind that more than half of DL's 6300 pilots are FO's, and roughly 30% of DL's pilots have less than 10 years seniority. Take that into account as well when running your numbers for a twelve year 777 captain.
I think you will find that DL created those average salaries using last years preconcession rates. Makes for a good media soundbyte though.
Your assertion that there isn't enough information is obviously biased. The figures are right in front of your face, yet you choose to ingnore it.

Again...we can go 'round and 'round and say the figures are not correct but as I keep saying (am I talking to myself?)...it just doesn't make sense that DALPA doesn't throw their own figures out there if the company's are so off base. Doesn't a counter argument make sense? Just as you present data and facts, don't you think it is strange that DALPA hasn't? I do. That's my point. period. Again...I'm not saying that the company's figures are right b/c with any argument...the truth is somewhere in the middle. But DALPA has provided no average of their own to come up with something in the middle. Please try to understand the point I am making.

What have you read on scheduling efficiency?

How about scores of posts here on how much time is being spent idle on the road b/c the trips are not tight enough. In past threads, you and the other pilots told me how inefficient the crew scheduling was b/c MUCH more time than necessary was spent idle on the road. That inefficiency may not mean fewer flight hours but it sure means that much more is being spent on hotels and per diem than is necessary. This isn't the pilots' fault...it is management's but it is definitely what I have been told on these boards. Is that all of a sudden no longer the case?

 

[luv2fly]

In past threads, you and the other pilots told me how inefficient the crew scheduling was b/c MUCH more time than necessary was spent idle on the road. That inefficiency may not mean fewer flight hours but it sure means that much more is being spent on hotels and per diem than is necessary. This isn't the pilots' fault...it is management's but it is definitely what I have been told on these boards. Is that all of a sudden no longer the case?

Where have I told you that scheduling is inefficient?
I have pointed out to WT and others on many occasions how stretched the current manning system is. On any given day, DL's manning numbers are in the negative. DL's manning has been grossly understaffed for well over a year now. The only reason it has not lead to more cancelled flights is because of the reduction in schedule.
In other words, if your pilots are flying 80 hours plus a month, there is no more blood in that turnip.
I am afraid you are not comparing apples to apples here. Don't confuse the quality of a trip with quantity. DL's is at minimum staffing, so going back to my original assertion, if 42% were to leave as was suggested, DL is grounded.

 

[Bagbelt]

The "guy on the street" will pay $10 for a sandwich and $2 for a bottle of water. No one is going to go hungry for people to make a living at an airline. There are the cheapskates in the world, but why should we have to lose money flying them? Let 'em take the bus.

 

[Busdrvr]

Chapt 12,
What makes you think that DALPA has NOT tried to get the real story out. Even if the average salary were 100K, there aren't too many over paid journalist out there who will write an article detailing the unfairness of that salary level. OVERPAID union workers makes good press now that less than 20% of the work force is union, while a story about how IT'S NOT the way it's being spun, just doesn't make for a good story.

On another topic, you can't possibly be counting Per diem as salary now!! What's next, the hotel room they put us in? The cost of a ticket on the flights we work since we get to that city? Per diem may have been a neat perk before, but at UAL one of the management demands was the ability to stick you at the cheaper "airport" hotel on VERY long layovers, where the only food to be had is the $12 burger served on a stale bun. Been there, done that. Happy new year to you and yours. May 2006 be a better year for ALL of us. 😉 🙂

 

[Ch. 12]

Chapt 12,
What makes you think that DALPA has NOT tried to get the real story out. Even if the average salary were 100K, there aren't too many over paid journalist out there who will write an article detailing the unfairness of that salary level. OVERPAID union workers makes good press now that less than 20% of the work force is union, while a story about how IT'S NOT the way it's being spun, just doesn't make for a good story.

Bus-

Perhaps you aren't aware of the PR process but a group puts out their own press release with their own "spin" as you may. DALPA has used press releases to state that they would consider a strike. What happens once these are on the newswire is that various media outlets can choose to run with the story if they wish. While I tend to agree that DALPA's story probably would not be picked up...the fact is that they (DALPA) never put out a press release with a counter-arguement to begin with. It doesn't require media buy-in to put out a press release.

On another topic, you can't possibly be counting Per diem as salary now!! What's next, the hotel room they put us in? The cost of a ticket on the flights we work since we get to that city? Per diem may have been a neat perk before, but at UAL one of the management demands was the ability to stick you at the cheaper "airport" hotel on VERY long layovers, where the only food to be had is the $12 burger served on a stale bun. Been there, done that. Happy new year to you and yours. May 2006 be a better year for ALL of us. 😉 🙂

My point on the per diem is that contrary to luv2fly's assertion...I was scolded in the past and told that management is so horrific at scheduling its crews that much more time (and days) is wasted with crews needlessly sitting in hotels or on the road than is necessary. So I'm on your side on this one...please don't turn it into an argument. I state that these inefficiencies cost the company in per diem and hotels...NOT that pilots are getting rich off of per diem. If companies can save millions of $$ a year simply by removing one olive from a salad, I would say that a couple of dollars per hour needlessly spent over and over is wasteful. It has nothing to do with pilots and everything with mgmt. For once I'm on your side (and luv2fly's as well)...please don't ruin the warm, fuzzy moment by thinking that I'm argueing against you.

And that being said...yes...I did also mention counting per diem towards compensation...even if it is miniscule...b/c I was also preached to in the past that the salary levels account for much time wasted on the road and I should consider that when thinking of the salary levels of pilots. So if I should consider it then...why not when calculating average salaries? Seems like it makes sense to me.

Happy New Years to you as well. I agree...hopefully ALL of us will see a better '06 and clearer skies ahead.

 

[Phoenix]

I would say that if you contradict figures, then the burden of proof falls onto the group stating that they are false.

Uh sparky... who is offering the "contradicting" figures? Does the order in which you happen to arrive in front of the AP reporter have any relationship to the truth of what you say?