DELTA tapped out

[Deleted by Moderator]

May be high time to appoint a "suicide watch" on ole WT.

He's tried to convince everyone of Delta's superiority but it looks like Delta may be the first casuality of overcapacity. I doubt anyone will merge with them. Most would prefer to just pick at the bones when it's over and done.

 

[Flufdriver]

I agree Mod..to funny, but true!!

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Now he'll probably not post for a couple weeks and claim that he was busy working. But never forget, he wasn't working when United was having their troubles. Then he was an active poster, slamming UAL daily with 20 minute tirades.

Back on topic:

How long before they fail completely? Will it happen quickly or years?

 

[luv2fly]

That is not entirely accurate. That is DALPA's interpretation of the agreement - one that Delta very much disagrees with.

I think it's highly unlikely DALPA will be allowed to strike if the decision goes against them. They were allowed to choose 2 of the 3 panel members. This makes it look like DALPA 'stacked the deck'. It would appear that Delta has a very strong incentive to NOT allow the decision to go into the hands of the arbitration panel when you consider this disadvantage. Should it come down to a vote and DALPA were to have their own hand-picked representatives vote against them, then how does it look when they go ahead and strike?

IMHO convincing a judge to not issue an injunction in this case would be extremely difficult. Tt would appear that DALPA was not negotiating in good faith when you consider the advantages Delta let them have.

No Dog, it is entirely accurate. The company is asserting the union does not have the right to strike because of section 6 negotiations of the Railway Labor Act, which would preclude a strike without a release from the NMB. Under the RLA , the President would/could convene a PEB which would only extend the "cooling off" period by 60 days. The findings of a PEB, if one were convened are not binding and the pilot group would once again be free to self help. The argument here is whether or not BK proceedings are covered by the RLA. This has not been a section 6 process. It is an 1113 BK proceeding which ALPA maintains is not governed by the RLA. This would be an issue for the court to decide. It is unprecedented and would essentially be legislation from the bench. In regards to a "stacked" advantage, the board is bound by the same ruling criteria that the BK judge would have had to adhere to. I am afraid your assertions are based on personal feelings and not fact.

 

[luv2fly]

May be high time to appoint a "suicide watch" on ole WT.

He's tried to convince everyone of Delta's superiority but it looks like Delta may be the first casuality of overcapacity. I doubt anyone will merge with them. Most would prefer to just pick at the bones when it's over and done.

While WT certainly suffers from delusions of grandeur at times, I believe your theory is equally delusional. Don't be a playa hater. 🙂

 

[TheDog2004]

No Dog, it is entirely accurate. The company is asserting the union does not have the right to strike because of section 6 negotiations of the Railway Labor Act, which would preclude a strike without a release from the NMB. Under the RLA , the President would/could convene a PEB which would only extend the "cooling off" period by 60 days. The findings of a PEB, if one were convened are not binding and the pilot group would once again be free to self help. The argument here is whether or not BK proceedings are covered by the RLA. This has not been a section 6 process. It is an 1113 BK proceeding which ALPA maintains is not governed by the RLA. This would be an issue for the court to decide. It is unprecedented and would essentially be legislation from the bench. In regards to a "stacked" advantage, the board is bound by the same ruling criteria that the BK judge would have had to adhere to. I am afraid your assertions are based on personal feelings and not fact.

You admit the company's point of view is different but again assert they are wrong. That's my point. The company's point of view is that DALPA will not have the right to strike if the contract is rejected.

Again, you are only going by what ALPA is saying and that is only one point of view. I am not saying who is right or wrong - only taht you have not fully considered both sides of the issue and appreciate that both sides may have a point.

 

[Vikedog64]

This could be a game of chicken in the end. Who will blink first. just my thoughts........... is it me or are the pilots really being picked on for concessions at a lot of the airlines?

You all talk this liquidation crap. DAL will get the rest of the cuts from the non-union employees if the pilots ndon't play ball. Management and the pilots know that!! With that said, enjoy flying Delta this summer. Alot of great places to go..

 

[Borescope]

I doubt anyone will merge with them. Most would prefer to just pick at the bones when it's over and done.

Bones, is correct. Where do they fly that everyone else doesn't? Maybe some gates and slots here and there, but not much more.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

You all talk this liquidation crap. DAL will get the rest of the cuts from the non-union employees if the pilots ndon't play ball. Management and the pilots know that!! With that said, enjoy flying Delta this summer. Alot of great places to go..

===========================================================

I wish like HEL* I had a $ dollar,for EVERYTIME I posted that very same "prognostication" that you just mentioned !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First the NON Union people get CORNHOLED !

Second, the Non union people "curse" the pilots, "EVENTHOUGH" THEY rejected Unionism MANY times !

Third, Every NON Union job gets outsourced, except F/A's, and agents and Mechanics at hubs and very large non hub stations.

And(sadly) finally(if things keep heading in this direction) BK-7.


It IS an "Unforgiving business" !!

NH/BB's

 

[luv2fly]

You admit the company's point of view is different but again assert they are wrong. That's my point. The company's point of view is that DALPA will not have the right to strike if the contract is rejected.

Again, you are only going by what ALPA is saying and that is only one point of view. I am not saying who is right or wrong - only taht you have not fully considered both sides of the issue and appreciate that both sides may have a point.

I was really referring to your assertion that the board was somehow slanted in ALPA's favor. The board is bound to decide this case by BK case law and not favoritism. It is not slanted.
You are correct in that DL maintains a strike would be illegal and ALPA the opposite. If an injunction is such a sure thing, why did NW simply not impose its contract when the judge failed to rule? If DL is banking on a court injunction, it is headed down a dangerous unprecedented path. For the first time I believe that a strike is an extremely real possibility . 🙁

 

[luv2fly]

I don't care for WT's rhetoric as much as anyone here, but I find it very interesting that many of you are guilty of the same thing.
I am by no means in denial about the status of DL. It is precarious to say the least, but there isn't anyone here working for a major airline that can boast that they are in such a better position. You can beat your chest all you want about the home town airline of choice, but the truth is we are all treading on thin ice. You might just be enjoying slightly thicker ice right now. 🙂
Just out of curiosity Borescope and Deleted by Mod, who do you work for?

 

[Ch. 12]

===========================================================

I wish like HEL* I had a $ dollar,for EVERYTIME I posted that very same "prognostication" that you just mentioned !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First the NON Union people get CORNHOLED !

Second, the Non union people "curse" the pilots, "EVENTHOUGH" THEY rejected Unionism MANY times !

Third, Every NON Union job gets outsourced, except F/A's, and agents and Mechanics at hubs and very large non hub stations.

And(sadly) finally(if things keep heading in this direction) BK-7.
It IS an "Unforgiving business" !!

NH/BB's

Do you really think that we ALL wish to be unionized? Sure...why not have EVERY employee of EVERY airline join a union so that when the industry is in a tailspin, we can ALL refuse to reduce salaries above the over-inflated rates that came about (rightfully...at the time) during boom times for the industry. Greyhound would have thanked all of the airline employees b/c such a scenario would have shut down the entire industry by 2002 and bus service would be the only mode of transportation available to us today.

I'm all for a union fighting against unsafe working conditions in a meat-packing plant or for protecting employees from an employer that is raking in dough but paying employees below minimum wage but to carry the union flag and tout injustice just to keep a wage that cannot be sustained given external forces affecting the industry is irresponsible. When are you going to figure that one out? Instead you have bought into the propoganda and greed that drives your union leadership. You almost need a union to protect you from your own union these days. Crazy, isn't it?

 

[Borescope]

I'm all for a union fighting against unsafe working conditions in a meat-packing plant or for protecting employees from an employer that is raking in dough but paying employees below minimum wage but to carry the union flag and tout injustice just to keep a wage that cannot be sustained given external forces affecting the industry is irresponsible. When are you going to figure that one out? Instead you have bought into the propoganda and greed that drives your union leadership. You almost need a union to protect you from your own union these days. Crazy, isn't it?

Politics? Isn't it? Same thing goes on in our government today. Greed drives a lot of things. Look at the congressman from California. Randy Cunningham..............8 years in prison b/c he got greedy. Unions work the same way, greed at the top and the worker bee takes it in the shorts.

Just out of curiosity Borescope and Deleted by Mod, who do you work for?

What difference does it make, everyone on this board could be car salesmen at GM dealers, that are really interested in aviation. DL doesn't really have anything that the other airlines would want except gates and slots. The other airline all fly where DL does. Only UA and NWA have the Pacific routes that ALL the legacys would want and it doesn't appear those routes are going anywhere except to stay with their respective carriers.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sorry for the delay in posting but I had to see the doctor to get my Prozac dosage increased!!! Life is so stressful and I DO feel SOOOO suicidal. (only in some people’s wet dreams).

I never said DL isn’t full tapped out. That is not a disputable point. But tell me how many airlines – in bankruptcy or not – have unused credit they can go run up willy nilly? DL’s point is perfectly valid that they have no room for error.

My disagreement – and I find it amusing that you brand me a DL management lover when I say this – is that DL is well on the way to recovery. DL has just said within the past couple months that they have achieved 70-80% of their needed cost cuts and are seeing revenue increasing at rates better than their plans (which several other airlines – but not all - are seeing as well). I find it hypocritical for DL management to attest to their fragility while also saying that they have made as much progress on their recovery as they have. I simply do not buy DL management’s arguments about how fragile they are, however, that is part of the path that they have taken to convince the arbitrators of the need for concessions.

What I do think is relevant in the arbitration hearings is what is needed for DL to recover. The pilot cost cuts DL is seeking are in the business plan. Further, ALPA’s repeated references to the $1B in “contributions†they made a year ago when you consider that DL pilots were the HIGHEST PAID IN THE INDUSTRY BY A VERY WIDE MARGIN for several years. DL would be just fine today if ALPA were still chanting UA + 1%. Notice how quickly that line went out to pasture. DL cannot afford to pay its pilots above average wages any more than it can any other supplier. DL PILOTS WILL NOT EVER BE PAID ABOVE AVERAGE RATES AGAIN. GET USED TO IT. They are offering industry average rates of pay and compensation.

The pension issue is obviously a significant compensation issue which has not been resolved. Although ALPA has apparently known longer than other parties that DL is likely to terminate the pilot pension plan, they have yet to value it. If ALPA were serious about coming up with a new contract, they would put a value on pension plan termination. It is completely illogical for ALPA to argue that DL should give them a $1B bond instead of the $330M DL is offering while also saying they have no idea what the pension plan termination is worth.

Statements like the pension plan termination bond demands only prove that ALPA is out for grabbing every last egg they can grab before the goose quits laying. If ALPA is serious about a settlement they will act rationally instead of emotionally. It is very obvious the arbitrators do not want to render a decision and will put enormous pressure on DL and the pilots to settle.

In the meantime there will be a huge amount of noise. The fact that DL and ALPA agreed to let this process play out in public says a huge amount about the pressure both parties want to put on each other in public. The reality, however, is that DL is being kept alive by borrowed money from lenders that will ensure their interests are protected. I can’t predict exactly what kind of settlement will be reached but it is very certain that the DL pilots will give more than they have so far. History, DL’s current financial position, and its intention of being a long-term viable company will ensure that.

 

[luv2fly]

What difference does it make, everyone on this board could be car salesmen at GM dealers, that are really interested in aviation.

What difference does it make? Well, for one, it tells me you don't know how to answer a simple question.
It also tells me you are incapable of having an discussion based on fact. :down: