DELTA tapped out

[luv2fly]

Further, ALPA’s repeated references to the $1B in “contributionsâ€￾ they made a year ago when you consider that DL pilots were the HIGHEST PAID IN THE INDUSTRY BY A VERY WIDE MARGIN for several years.

Lets just clarify your statement. The total contribution is $5 billion over five years and that doesn't include the addtional 14% paycut and concessions provided at the end of last year.

DL would be just fine today if ALPA were still chanting UA + 1%.

Really WT? You mean if DL pilots were now paid UA +1%, DL airlines wouldn't be in BK? BS. Was the pilot contract a contrbitor to that debt? Absolutely. Was it the reason we are where we are today? Absolutely not. This management team saddled this company with debt after 9-11. It secured notes and finacing that ran up over 20 billion dollars in debt that it knew it could not substain. I suppose you will now assert the 20 billion was just to pay the pilots?
It sold pricless fuel hedges when fuel was already on the rise. It continued to purchase RJ's with CASM's pushing twenty cents. It destroyed employee morale by coming back to employees for concessions over and over again while funding their own BK protected pensions and senior exectuive retention plans. Don't do as I do. Just do as I say. If DL airlines fails, it will not be because of the greedy gd pilots.It won't be because of any employee group. That honor belongs to the group of people who are pretending to be leaders.

Although ALPA has apparently known longer than other parties that DL is likely to terminate the pilot pension plan, they have yet to value it.

No WT, the company knew it. It just didn't want to admit it because they knew it would have to be accounted for. Judge prudence exposed that fact in the court proceedings and it is now being exposed to the arbitration board. If you don't fund the plan, it will default. Not rocket science here.

It is completely illogical for ALPA to argue that DL should give them a $1B bond instead of the $330M DL is offering while also saying they have no idea what the pension plan termination is worth.

The ecomonic and analysis team at ALPA has determined the value of the DB plan to be roughly 1 billion. I would call the offer of $330 million "illogical".

Statements like the pension plan termination bond demands only prove that ALPA is out for grabbing every last egg they can grab before the goose quits laying.

You see, statements like this are exactly what is wrong with corporate America. You accuse me of grabbing every last egg. I call it trying to recover a pension that has been stolen. In addition, the employee groups at DL lost most if not all of the company 401k match contributions of DL stock. Retirement plans are under attack in this country and the best you can offer up is "Get used to it." Never mind while I line my pockets, you look the other way. Pardon me, but FU.

I can’t predict exactly what kind of settlement will be reached but it is very certain that the DL pilots will give more than they have so far.
Well that is a given because the union is already offering an additonal $190 million or so and that doesn't include the pension plan that will default. No real revelation there.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Oh please! You meant to say "I" not "we." Saying "we knew you would..." makes it sound like everyone else is on your side. NEWS FLASH -- We're not.

I happen to agree with fluf. And since many other's do as well, I guess WE knew you'd try your hardest to spin it your way.

DL is out of options as far as borrowing $, and the pilot's are rightfully standing their ground, having given as much as they did already.

perhaps the 'we' refers to all the guys in the internet pr firm office.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

But what about Bush's comments that all companys must now keep their pensions. Does that mean that Delta can't dump the pilot pension?



_________________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bush says companies must keep pension promises
Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:56 AM ET
WASHINGTON, March 10 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush said on Friday that companies, even ones that are struggling, must keep their pensions properly funded to ensure that workers receive promised benefits.
In comments to a newspaper association conference, Bush referred to companies that have already or may terminate their pension plans to cut costs, mainly during bankruptcy restructuring.
"People have asked whether or not private companies that have made pension promises should be relieved of their responsibility. And my answer is, if you make a promise, you got to keep it," Bush said.
"I think that's a very important principle to state loud and clear," he added
Bush's remarks were a reminder to congressional negotiators just beginning work on a compromise pension reform legislation that the White House wants a tougher bill than what lawmakers are considering.
The Bush administration has raised the prospect of a veto if its expectations are not met.
All sides agree that corporate funding rules must be tightened and that the health of the deficit-ridden federal pension insurance program shored up.
But there are differences. For instance, the administration opposes a provision in a reform bill approved by the Senate that would allow struggling airlines -- like bankrupt Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines -- to stretch their required contribution to pension plans over a longer period of time.
Bush also signaled his reluctance to support any large-scale government help for financially struggling U.S. auto companies at the expense of foreign competitors that have made substantial gains in market share.
He said fairer trade policies by other nations would be the best medicine for auto company woes. "I'm confident that if the playing field is level that we can compete with anybody," Bush said.

 

[FWAAA]

But what about Bush's comments that all companys must now keep their pensions. Does that mean that Delta can't dump the pilot pension?
_________________________________________________

Most of what I've read interprets the comments by Bush as meaning he may veto a bill if it provides for a long-term make-up provision of pension shortages at airlines or other specific industries.

If so, he is completely misinformed (and I'm a two-time Bush voter). If he rejects a 17 year or 20 year makeup provision, then DL and NW will immediately seek to terminate their plans and dump them on the PBGC.

If the President really wants companies to make good on their pension promises, he will encourage his fellow Republicans in the House and Senate to send him a bill that gives DL and NW a chance to make up those deficits over a longer period, because neither has the cash (or the ability to borrow enough) to make up the shortages pursuant to the current law's timetable.

 

[john john]

You all talk this liquidation crap. DAL will get the rest of the cuts from the non-union employees if the pilots ndon't play ball. Management and the pilots know that!! With that said, enjoy flying Delta this summer. Alot of great places to go..

Been their done that got the pay & benefit cuts to prove it

 

[BottomFeeder]

It's one thing to make such statements to the press. However, the article says that Delta's CFO testified to the [Federal] arbitration panel that they are "tapped out." Are you suggesting that the CFO perjured himself before the panel? There are penalties for doing so; and, if the man made it to CFO, I don't think he is that dumb. Crazy maybe, but not dumb.

I remember reading or hearing the same thing said a few years back with the CFO at UsAirways. Seems the guy could not even remember his salary in front a pannel or judge or something. I believe he at NWA now and not in jail. The good old boy system still works behind closed doors.

 

[WorldTraveler]

FWAAA,
You are dead on with the pension issue. It is no longer possible to argue for the "right" thing to do. Of course the right thing would be for DL and NW to keep their pensions but the right thing would also be for every worker to have reasonable assurances their healthcare and necessary living expenses can be provided for in their later years but that isn't happening.


luv,
I don't really care if the pilots contributed $100 billion dollars. If they were vastly overpaid compared to their peers, the pendulum would eventually swing to the other side. You are now having to pay back the loans you took out in 2001.

As for the debt DL management took out, it was done because they didn't want to pull the nuclear option. Too bad DL management didn't do it AA's way because if they did, your contract would have been decimated and DL wouldn't be in bankruptcy. That's a fact. Saving a billion dollars a year in labor costs three years ago would have done wonders for DL (and that includes non-pilot personnel). I still think UA plus 1 is a good idea, don't you?

No ALPA has not valued the pension plan termination because their counsel testified just this week to the arbitrators that they do not know what they should ask. A billion dollar request now can only be seen as grabbing.

And let me remind you one more time that you are paid by the company, not the other way around. You can act like you will get what you want for your services and employ labor unions till your heart is content but ultimately your employer, any employer, will pay you only what they want to pay you. If they have to pay you more than they want for the short term, then they will figure out a way in the long term to cut you out of the business. If you don't get that basic concept, you are truly to be pitied. The evidence should be overwhelming that DALPA has cashed in all the goodwill they built up over the years at Delta. You are now a liability to the company and are no longer considered the partner in the business that you once were. At one time, DALPA was a contributor that allowed Delta to grow from insignificance to a major global carrier. Those days and the gravy pay that came with them are over. Move on. You made your bed so now sleep in it. Put in other words, you have broken the cardinal rule to not bite the hand that feeds you. Your master now has the shotgun loaded and is ready to pull the trigger.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

too bad they only have a few months left until ch 7

 

[aislehopper]

I sure hope that you are wrong. I like working here.

 

[luv2fly]

You are now a liability to the company and are no longer considered the partner in the business that you once were. At one time, DALPA was a contributor that allowed Delta to grow from insignificance to a major global carrier. Those days and the gravy pay that came with them are over. Move on. You made your bed so now sleep in it. Put in other words, you have broken the cardinal rule to not bite the hand that feeds you. Your master now has the shotgun loaded and is ready to pull the trigger.

Who do you think makes up DL airlines? The employees. You see, that is what I am talking about. That holier than thou mentality that oozes from corporate theft advocates such as yourself. It cracks me up that you see yourself as the caregiver. I see you as something I am not allowed to describe in public. Use your imagination.
Let DL throw out the contract and impose one. DL would be "pulling" the trigger on themselves. They are well versed in it.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

I sure hope that you are wrong. I like working here.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

aislehopper,

You know, I for one hope that you and your fellow DL employees do NOT lose there job !!!

Shifting gears for a moment, I'd like to solicit your help here Publicly.

Here goes;

I am SO "Sick and Tired" of World Traveler repeating OVER and OVER and OVER again, "That you DALPA guys/gals were far overpaid to begin with, therefore you MUST/WILL take LARGE pay cuts" !!

A h, what I don't understand is, it WAS DL's (Most) senior management, that "ALLOWED" Dalpa to BE in that POSITION.

That IMHO IS DELTA AIRLINES PROBLEM, and THAT DOES NOT equate that DALPA must take "LARGER" pay cuts.

Unfortunately, because of DL/LEO's STUPIDITY, most likely the Non-Union people will take another BIG $$ HIT !!

Let me ask you straight out. ("Despite DALPA being put in a High pay rate BY DL MANAGEMENT) Do you think that they
Should give back "EXTRA" money(Over and above), because of DL's STUPIDITY" ?
(I'm not asking this question from a "moral", or "Do the right thing" standpoint)

Thanx aislehopper !!


NH/BB's

Do you really think that we ALL wish to be unionized? Sure...why not have EVERY employee of EVERY airline join a union so that when the industry is in a tailspin, we can ALL refuse to reduce salaries above the over-inflated rates that came about (rightfully...at the time) during boom times for the industry. Greyhound would have thanked all of the airline employees b/c such a scenario would have shut down the entire industry by 2002 and bus service would be the only mode of transportation available to us today.

I'm all for a union fighting against unsafe working conditions in a meat-packing plant or for protecting employees from an employer that is raking in dough but paying employees below minimum wage but to carry the union flag and tout injustice just to keep a wage that cannot be sustained given external forces affecting the industry is irresponsible. When are you going to figure that one out? Instead you have bought into the propoganda and greed that drives your union leadership. You almost need a union to protect you from your own union these days. Crazy, isn't it?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ch. 12,

Believe it or not, I realize that a LOT of DL employees still do not want a Union !!

I just want to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, that you understand, that YOU will take a LARGER cut AGAIN, because you do NOT have a Union !!

Nothing more, nothing less.

NH/BB's

 

[Dizel8]

WT,

I have to agree with luv2fly, an airline, or any company for that matter, is only as good as its employees. This is particularily true in a service business, which the airlines are. To simply consider the employees to be cost units and automatons is seriously flawed management thinking. You need to consider, that the best companies to work for, as listed by say Forbes, are also often the most consistently profitable ones. Coincidence, I doubt that.

Herb Kelleher is famous for a lot of things, one being that he sternly believes, that if you treat an employee well, that employee in turn will take good care of the customer and hence, the customer will have a great experience and may well return. As it is well known, a happy customer tells maybe two or three people about the experince, whereas an unhappy customer tells ten.

One of the things that employees need to have, other than reasonable compensation, is trust in management. DAL was famous for it relations with its employees, The Spirit of Atlanta is strong proof of that, however, as we have sadly seen, that trust no longer exist. We all can see why: Retention and bankruptcy proof retirement plans for management, while the employee is giving concession.

In case of the pilots, DAL said they wanted a seamless contract negotiation back when, well guess what, it was anything but, it took the threat of grounding the 777s before management would negotiate in good faith.

Now, management is back for more concessions, mind you, they already got a billion, yes that is with a B, out of the pilots, but they need more. However, they are still not being honest and they are still not negotiating in good faith. Although it would be easy for an accountant to figure out what the DB plan is costing DAL, mangement is unwilling to concede, that this would represent a major part of the giveback they are requesting from the pilots.

I could go on and on, but I am afraid that it would be pointless, since it appears to me, that you fail to grasp the human part of the equation. All you see is lowered wages for the employees, shiny airplanes and potential new destinations. Just imagine, if we could pay all the DAL employees like Phillipine sweatshops workers, then your beloved DAL could be profitable beyond your wildest imagination. Wouldn't that be glorious?

 

[jbguppy]

FWAAA,
You are dead on with the pension issue. It is no longer possible to argue for the "right" thing to do. Of course the right thing would be for DL and NW to keep their pensions but the right thing would also be for every worker to have reasonable assurances their healthcare and necessary living expenses can be provided for in their later years but that isn't happening.
luv,
I don't really care if the pilots contributed $100 billion dollars. If they were vastly overpaid compared to their peers, the pendulum would eventually swing to the other side. You are now having to pay back the loans you took out in 2001.

As for the debt DL management took out, it was done because they didn't want to pull the nuclear option. Too bad DL management didn't do it AA's way because if they did, your contract would have been decimated and DL wouldn't be in bankruptcy. That's a fact. Saving a billion dollars a year in labor costs three years ago would have done wonders for DL (and that includes non-pilot personnel). I still think UA plus 1 is a good idea, don't you?

No ALPA has not valued the pension plan termination because their counsel testified just this week to the arbitrators that they do not know what they should ask. A billion dollar request now can only be seen as grabbing.

And let me remind you one more time that you are paid by the company, not the other way around. You can act like you will get what you want for your services and employ labor unions till your heart is content but ultimately your employer, any employer, will pay you only what they want to pay you. If they have to pay you more than they want for the short term, then they will figure out a way in the long term to cut you out of the business. If you don't get that basic concept, you are truly to be pitied. The evidence should be overwhelming that DALPA has cashed in all the goodwill they built up over the years at Delta. You are now a liability to the company and are no longer considered the partner in the business that you once were. At one time, DALPA was a contributor that allowed Delta to grow from insignificance to a major global carrier. Those days and the gravy pay that came with them are over. Move on. You made your bed so now sleep in it. Put in other words, you have broken the cardinal rule to not bite the hand that feeds you. Your master now has the shotgun loaded and is ready to pull the trigger.

WT,
you continue to speak out of both sides of your mouth on DAL and their resturcturing. First you say that DAL is well on its way to exit, ahead of plan, and doing a much better job. Then you think obviously that the company is in dire shape and must be accomodated in their request for deeper concessions from the pilots in arbitration.

Bottom line for me after reading your voluminous diatribes is that you will incosistently take whatever position is necessary to cheerlead for DAL management with no respect for your previous writings. However long and cliche filled your posts - you are either suffering from memory loss or simply looking to flame every worker.

Have you noticed the number of people referring to you in jest? At this point your credibility is gone.

Good Luck...

JBG

 

[Ch. 12]

Ch. 12,

Believe it or not, I realize that a LOT of DL employees still do not want a Union !!

I just want to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, that you understand, that YOU will take a LARGER cut AGAIN, because you do NOT have a Union !!

Nothing more, nothing less.

NH/BB's

Perhaps I'm not ignorant enough to think that extremely high wages are sustainable on extremely low revenue. I've got a little common sense and have an idea of what it takes to have a positive profit margin. My wages have already been brought down below rates of comparable positions in other industries but I know that other industries have positive profits. If I have to take another cut b/c a group that has wages far above what the market can sustain and refuses to budge, I won't blame my choice to not have a union, that is for sure. If a union is there to ensure that your wages stay at a level where the company loses money, I see unionism as a pretty stupid choice. I have never questioned my choice to not be union and WILL NEVER b/c they don't fight for the right things. Just like our government, pride and ignorance make a horrible combination and they are making unions make unrealistic demands that will continue to further erode the industry.

I've said it OVER AND OVER...unions SHOULD BE trying to protect against real evils such as unsafe workplace and real corruption. When the entire industry is going down, I hardly think that wage cuts are out of the question. Blame whoever you want for the state of the industry but we all know it is b/c of changes in corporate travel, fare transparancy, and a continued infusion of excess capacity by LCCs...all of which have brought down unit revenues. B/C of that, unit costs HAVE to come down. It is painful to me but it is REALITY to me. If I were being forced to clean dangerous moving pieces on machinery w/o a choice, I would think about a union. The fact that wages are unsustainable and I may have to make a lifestyle change (or job change...I've done it before) is not a reason to unionize. I love my job but am not ignorant to the state of the industry nor the reasons behind it.

Think I'll pass on your ill-conceived idea of what a union should be. Look at a history of unions and what they are SUPPOSED to be and you will probably feel pretty embarrased about what they have evolved to and the dumb choices of things that they fight for.

 

[Vikedog64]

Perhaps I'm not ignorant enough to think that extremely high wages are sustainable on extremely low revenue. I've got a little common sense and have an idea of what it takes to have a positive profit margin. My wages have already been brought down below rates of comparable positions in other industries but I know that other industries have positive profits. If I have to take another cut b/c a group that has wages far above what the market can sustain and refuses to budge, I won't blame my choice to not have a union, that is for sure. If a union is there to ensure that your wages stay at a level where the company loses money, I see unionism as a pretty stupid choice. I have never questioned my choice to not be union and WILL NEVER b/c they don't fight for the right things. Just like our government, pride and ignorance make a horrible combination and they are making unions make unrealistic demands that will continue to further erode the industry.

I've said it OVER AND OVER...unions SHOULD BE trying to protect against real evils such as unsafe workplace and real corruption. When the entire industry is going down, I hardly think that wage cuts are out of the question. Blame whoever you want for the state of the industry but we all know it is b/c of changes in corporate travel, fare transparancy, and a continued infusion of excess capacity by LCCs...all of which have brought down unit revenues. B/C of that, unit costs HAVE to come down. It is painful to me but it is REALITY to me. If I were being forced to clean dangerous moving pieces on machinery w/o a choice, I would think about a union. The fact that wages are unsustainable and I may have to make a lifestyle change (or job change...I've done it before) is not a reason to unionize. I love my job but am not ignorant to the state of the industry nor the reasons behind it.

Think I'll pass on your ill-conceived idea of what a union should be. Look at a history of unions and what they are SUPPOSED to be and you will probably feel pretty embarrased about what they have evolved to and the dumb choices of things that they fight for.

Chap 12, you get it. I am a employee with DAL and what is going on scares me to death. But I also believe there will be a settlement in the near future. Too much at stake with the creditors, pilots, etc..