DL lets minor fly with no ticket alone.
- Thread starter 700UW
- Start date
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #17
there is no disagreement on that point, 700.
No one has argued that something went wrong that needs to be fixed one way or the other.
There are a whole lot of details about what happened that we will never know on here so trying to fix the problem is not appropriate for us to try to do here.
As is often the case in accidents, there are multiple factors and multiple causes at play. People who have a much better grasp of what went wrong will have to figure it all out.
No one has argued that something went wrong that needs to be fixed one way or the other.
There are a whole lot of details about what happened that we will never know on here so trying to fix the problem is not appropriate for us to try to do here.
As is often the case in accidents, there are multiple factors and multiple causes at play. People who have a much better grasp of what went wrong will have to figure it all out.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
I worked the gates for several years, and never had anyone slip past without a boarding pass. I had a few try, and this was back in the days of sticky tab seat charts. A few went as far as trying to use an old boarding pass from a previous flight on one that was full. There had to be a serious lapse on the part of the boarding agent to let this happen. I know they don't always take a headcount, but the last I knew they did count the empty seats to verify the count.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,916
- 9,360
There's no question the system failed. Anyone claiming "it eventually worked" is a fool. The kid got all the way to his destination. Had he been stopped onboard, you might have a very weak claim that it worked.
Every.
Checkpoint.
Failed.
The kid *did* bust thru multiple levels of security. He walked past the ID checkers at TSA, past the gate reader at DL, and past a flight attendant at the door who presumably should have had eye contact & greeted him as he walked onboard....
Yes, it all failed. Beautifully, I might add.
Oh, I'm pretty certain that Lufthansa, JAL, ANA, and a half dozen or so airlines I've worked with are quite confident in the image they present.
And they all use the same barrier gates many modern subways now use.
The gates used at Haneda and Narita are so smart they can detect the height of the passenger, and validate if a child e-ticket is being used by an adult...
I'm pretty certain this wouldn't have happened on any of those world class airlines.
http://www.boonedam.us/press/pressdetail.asp?PressId=431
Every.
Checkpoint.
Failed.
The kid *did* bust thru multiple levels of security. He walked past the ID checkers at TSA, past the gate reader at DL, and past a flight attendant at the door who presumably should have had eye contact & greeted him as he walked onboard....
Yes, it all failed. Beautifully, I might add.
Oh, I'm pretty certain that Lufthansa, JAL, ANA, and a half dozen or so airlines I've worked with are quite confident in the image they present.
And they all use the same barrier gates many modern subways now use.
The gates used at Haneda and Narita are so smart they can detect the height of the passenger, and validate if a child e-ticket is being used by an adult...
I'm pretty certain this wouldn't have happened on any of those world class airlines.
http://www.boonedam.us/press/pressdetail.asp?PressId=431
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #20
DL tested self-boarding gates that used a similar turnstile arrangement but were also designed to be self-boarding.
Perhaps, DL realized its self-boarding technology wasn't as advanced as what exists at some of those other airports, including NRT and HND, and I have boarded thru those types of gates at both.
Still, US airlines generally don't use that type of boarding process so it is possible that DL didn't want to be the first. Maybe, maybe not.
I would be surprised if there aren't changes because there was indeed multi-factor/system failure.
Perhaps, DL realized its self-boarding technology wasn't as advanced as what exists at some of those other airports, including NRT and HND, and I have boarded thru those types of gates at both.
Still, US airlines generally don't use that type of boarding process so it is possible that DL didn't want to be the first. Maybe, maybe not.
I would be surprised if there aren't changes because there was indeed multi-factor/system failure.
jimntx
Veteran
It's fairly easy for a child to "attach" themselves to another family group or sometimes even an adult at the boarding door. With agents being faced with enormous pressure to close the door on time, a kid just walks past almost any harried agent being handed 5 or 6 boarding passes by one adult.
Besides, in the past year or so, I've had several adults come on the plane, complain there is someone in their seat, and it turns out they have boarded the wrong flight. Now, how they got past the almighty Electronic Gate Reader (EGR), and the operating agent is another question. When their boarding pass wouldn't scan, the agent probably manually entered their seat number and "onned" them (term I've heard agents use) without even looking to see if the problem was wrong flight number, wrong destination. And, when the EGR warned that the information entered created a Seat Dupe, no action was taken.
I'm a lot more concerned about the security aspect and just how watchful the TSA evidently isn't. Not just at MPL, either. Even at DFW I've seen them let a child through security with no boarding pass in hand--assuming the adult ahead or behind with a sheaf of BPs has one for that kid.
Besides, in the past year or so, I've had several adults come on the plane, complain there is someone in their seat, and it turns out they have boarded the wrong flight. Now, how they got past the almighty Electronic Gate Reader (EGR), and the operating agent is another question. When their boarding pass wouldn't scan, the agent probably manually entered their seat number and "onned" them (term I've heard agents use) without even looking to see if the problem was wrong flight number, wrong destination. And, when the EGR warned that the information entered created a Seat Dupe, no action was taken.
I'm a lot more concerned about the security aspect and just how watchful the TSA evidently isn't. Not just at MPL, either. Even at DFW I've seen them let a child through security with no boarding pass in hand--assuming the adult ahead or behind with a sheaf of BPs has one for that kid.
Glenn Quagmire
Veteran
- Apr 30, 2012
- 4,809
- 4,343
Maybe Delta got a great deal on the old turnstiles replaced by those fancy machines? Kind of like putting lipstick on the old pigs instead of new aircraft?There's no question the system failed. Anyone claiming "it eventually worked" is a fool. The kid got all the way to his destination. Had he been stopped onboard, you might have a very weak claim that it worked.
Every.
Checkpoint.
Failed.
The kid *did* bust thru multiple levels of security. He walked past the ID checkers at TSA, past the gate reader at DL, and past a flight attendant at the door who presumably should have had eye contact & greeted him as he walked onboard....
Yes, it all failed. Beautifully, I might add.
Oh, I'm pretty certain that Lufthansa, JAL, ANA, and a half dozen or so airlines I've worked with are quite confident in the image they present.
And they all use the same barrier gates many modern subways now use.
The gates used at Haneda and Narita are so smart they can detect the height of the passenger, and validate if a child e-ticket is being used by an adult...
I'm pretty certain this wouldn't have happened on any of those world class airlines.
http://www.boonedam.us/press/pressdetail.asp?PressId=431
metopower
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2006
- 932
- 313
Reality check.. The kid was screened by tsa .Not a security risk. If he had accessed the terminal and aircraft without going through screening then That is a problem. I doubt that the agent get anything more then a letter unless there is more to the story and that agent has a bad history. That is according to my gate agent friends.
Kev3188
Veteran
Our employer doesn't do "teachable moments."
Kev,
You really think DL would take what is already a widely publicized and disappointing situation and terminate/suspend the personnel involved? I know you have your feelings about DLs motives and employee relations but especially if the momentum you keep boasting about with A cards being signed (other classifications, I know) is true. Besides if it was a 763 I have to imagine there were at least two CSAs working the flight, possibly more. Heck my most recent DL 757 flight had four CSAs in the boarding area gate checking bags and managing the lines and answering questions.
Josh
You really think DL would take what is already a widely publicized and disappointing situation and terminate/suspend the personnel involved? I know you have your feelings about DLs motives and employee relations but especially if the momentum you keep boasting about with A cards being signed (other classifications, I know) is true. Besides if it was a 763 I have to imagine there were at least two CSAs working the flight, possibly more. Heck my most recent DL 757 flight had four CSAs in the boarding area gate checking bags and managing the lines and answering questions.
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
If we find out...Our employer also enjoys secrecy...
Either way, I'm sure this person would really enjoy the same rights of recourse you have right now...
Kev3188
Veteran
4 people working a '57 must be nice... It's also not the norm, and I suspect that short staffing is the root cause here. Overworked/distracted agent(s), and we saw how it ended up. In an ideal world, *that's* what would be addressed. Somehow, I dobut that's what'll happen... much easier to make an example.out of someone instead. Will love to be proven.wrong, though...
OTOH, I can see them makingt a big deal out of *not* firing them as a sort of "good news story" about why a union is not needed. Wouldn't be the first time...
Game theory is fun...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #30
Kev,
You need to get a job at Meto's airline.
Yes, a single agent is the norm for narrowbody domestic hub flights but DL also has refined the processes and automation such that it really is possible to work a flight w/ one agent - but there almost always are extra agents available, esp. if the workload dictates it... hub to hub flight, high standby counts....
I'm not sure I'd really call it game theory.... how do you EVER close your eyes to fall asleep at night?
You need to get a job at Meto's airline.
Yes, a single agent is the norm for narrowbody domestic hub flights but DL also has refined the processes and automation such that it really is possible to work a flight w/ one agent - but there almost always are extra agents available, esp. if the workload dictates it... hub to hub flight, high standby counts....
I'm not sure I'd really call it game theory.... how do you EVER close your eyes to fall asleep at night?
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