Does Anybody Have Any Hope For U Or Ual

[Doc]

United doesn't have the money. It follows US Airways, and it also follows Lucent (NYSE: LU - News), which had to crank back on the amount of post-retirement benefits it pays its retirees. These are the perils of companies that once upon a time were large and important -- they shrink, but their obligations don't. At this point United's choices are to either hose its retirees or go out of business for good. I vote for B.

Bill Mann

 

[Cosmo]

At this point United's choices are to either hose its retirees or go out of business for good. I vote for B.

Bill Mann

That's a good sound bite, but it's actually a false choice. The real choices given United's present circumstances appear to be either: (1) hose the retirees (current and future) but keep 62,000+ workers employed; or (2) hose the retirees (current and future) AND put 62,000+ employees out on the street. And this analytical genius believes that #2 is the better choice? For who? Is he really paid for this kind of "analysis"?

 

[mrfish3726]

The problem in arranging financing is that those footing the bill in arranging financing aren't very interested in re-launching a business that will simply destroy more capital. United, like many companies before it, might be worth more to creditors broken up and sold for scrap than as an operating entity.
So the company has to come up with a plan that shows creditors that it has a reasonable chance to gain a return in the event the company operates once again. A $4 billion cash obligation along with an $8 billion existing shortfall in United’s pension plans make the case for continuing United as an operating company much tougher.

What a total mess. United noted in its filing that it "would like nothing better than to keep the pension plans intact." This, of course, is not quite true. What United would like to do more than anything else is to emerge from bankruptcy. Obviously, the company has obligations that far outstrip its ability to fulfill them. UAL notes that it hopes to gain an agreement from various unions that will allow it to meet its pension obligations and operate.

COSMO,

The guy is only making the same sensible case, UAL HAS NO SOUND BUSINESS PLAN. What they need is a totally new management team or a trustee that TRULY knows the business and CAN CHANGE the way UniTED operates. The current UAL system continually does nothing more than alienate the employee groups time and again. What MORE should UAL Management expect!

 

[The Ronin]

That's a good sound bite, but it's actually a false choice. The real choices given United's present circumstances appear to be either: (1) hose the retirees (current and future) but keep 62,000+ workers employed; or (2) hose the retirees (current and future) AND put 62,000+ employees out on the street. And this analytical genius believes that #2 is the better choice? For who? Is he really paid for this kind of "analysis"?

[post="170983"][/post]​

Thats the WHOLE BALL OF WAX IN A NUTSHELL Cosmo.....It's what they're going to tell the government, unions, creditors and anyone else I left out.....you either play this way, or we can play THAT WAY....and you know what....IT'S GOING TO WORK....

 

[mrfish3726]

I don't know were CBS Market Watch gets their news from?

Faced with high operating costs, soaring fuel prices, and stiff competition from a new generation of low-cost carriers, United has been demanding steep pay cuts from its union employees.

This hasn't happened yet to MY knowledge, but you can bet it is coming real soon.

 

[The Ronin]

I don't know were CBS Market Watch gets their news from?

Faced with high operating costs, soaring fuel prices, and stiff competition from a new generation of low-cost carriers, United has been demanding steep pay cuts from its union employees.

This hasn't happened yet to MY knowledge, but you can bet it is coming real soon.

[post="171017"][/post]​

Dis-agree.....EOT 😛h34r:

 

[mrfish3726]

See, now I wonder what would happen if UAL implemented a plan like this one?

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040820/airlines_alaska_2.html

"The reasons for the reorganization are to speed decision making and to improve communication and accountability,"

Now this would be a noble concept at UAL wouldn't it? Current management couldn't see the vision in this plan though.

 

[casual rat]

I have hope....I hope that there is indeed a "Hell" and those whose short lives were enhanced by personal greed, and made decisions that squandered the future of the company (for the sake of their penis size) to the detriment of the people who work/ed hard for the customer, get to experience it--in full--for eternity. Yeah, I have hope.

 

[The Ronin]

I have hope....I hope that there is indeed a "Hell" and those whose short lives were enhanced by personal greed, and made decisions that squandered the future of the company (for the sake of their penis size) to the detriment of the people who work/ed hard for the customer, get to experience it--in full--for eternity. Yeah, I have hope.

[post="171027"][/post]​

Ditto.....

 

[Flydrive1]

I have hope....I hope that there is indeed a "Hell" and those whose short lives were enhanced by personal greed, and made decisions that squandered the future of the company (for the sake of their penis size) to the detriment of the people who work/ed hard for the customer, get to experience it--in full--for eternity. Yeah, I have hope.

[post="171027"][/post]​

Well said!

 

[mrfish3726]

Way to go FA's Union! All of your unions should be pursing this and let the Bankruptcy court, the creditors and the BOD know that enough lolly gagging is enough. Appoint a trustee and get rid of the defunct management (All the upper management) at UniTED.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040820/nyf074_1.html

 

[Dave]

Mr. Fish:

I see you making many posts about United's lack of business plan. As I'm kind of new to this airline business thing, could you please explain to me how Continental's business model, or any legacy carrier for that matter, differs from United's?

Thanks

 

[mrfish3726]

Dave,

I've worked at both carriers and they both had failing business plans. What saved Continental out of their BK many years ago was a total house cleaning that got rid of all the old thinkers. They brought in new blood, young blood, folks that truly had a vision on how to survive and become a very profitable airline.

United hired Glenn Tilton an oil guy who knows nothing of the airline business, but continues to act on the mistakes of the people who have really run UAL for years. Dave, if you know nothing of UAL's wow's then I'll give you just a short insight as I have seen it and lived it at UAL.

The problems at UniTED are really no different today then they were back in the early 90's when Mr. Wolf cried wolf and demanded employee give backs or UAL would go into BK. They hammered out what was know as ESOP which gave the employee groups UAL stock in exchange for 5.5 billion in wage concessions over a 6 year period I believe. Also a few employee groups were given a seat on the BOD's which was suppose to give the employee groups more say so in day to day operations. Things looked bright for UAL over the years after that, as they reaped in billions of dollars in profits. Did they have a plan to save some money for the hard times of course not? They spent money like it was going out of style.

They had PROMISED the employee group’s seamless contracts to avoid the long drawn out contract negotiations. Seamless contracts that would bring them in line with other airline employee groups since most at UAL hadn't had a pay raise during the ESOP, some in excess of 10 years. When these talks started first with the pilots group, things started to get tense at UAL. The pilots held UAL, and UAL's passenger’s hostage during the 2000 summer of hell. This cost UAL over 400 million in lost revenue that summer. The Pilots won an industry leading contract out of that one. Management was pissed, but to get things on track they caved in.

Next the mechanics were up for renewal, management’s stance hardened after what the pilots did to them. When maintenance tried to force the issue with a non-union supported work slow down the company asked the court to slap a restraining order on the mechanics group and vowed to terminate anyone found in violation of such a court order. Enter again the OLD, heavy-handed, and hardcore UAL management tactics that were ever so present in the past. After over two years of negotiations under the direction of a BUSH appointed PEB the board informed UAL management that they were liable to pay the mechanics group a top pay of $35 an hour. I am sure that management was FUMING over the government telling them that they had to live up to their promise of industry leading wages.

Then came 9/11, everyone at UAL was well aware that the aviation industry was going to be transformed forever after that disaster. UAL took full advantage of this for their own goals to finally GET back at a few of the employee groups that had what you might say, shown them up over the years leading up to 9/11. Things started to happen quickly, with management telling the employee groups that they'd need them to give back the raises that they had just work so hard to get. The raises that they were due for pulling UAL out the first time that management screwed up the company and sold them on ESOP. Management knew that they had to make changes and fast to try to conserve as much cash as they could.

First they cut back the flight schedule, which eventually started the furloughs at UAL. We started pre 9/11 with 110K employees, and UAL today probably has just over 70K. They shut down UniTED Shuttle, only because there was a clause in the mechanics contract that prohibited UAL from lying off mechanics with a certain hire date. Just to give you an example of how much the mechanics group suffered. Pre 9/11 there were over 13K in this group, with as few as 5K today. UAL has done nothing but fought with the employee groups for years, and as time passes you will see that this will never change.

When I started with UAL in LAX back in the late 90's I had a senior mechanic there tell me once. "Don't fight it and make waves, we've been doing it like this at UAL for 50 years." Management is still doing the same things they did 20 years ago DAVE! They don't have a plane to save UniTED. They worry about what is going on externally of the company and don't focus on what they can do to change things internally. If they continue to do this, eventually the judge will wake up and let other groups submit a plan to exit BK. And after the last 5.5 billion in wage conssesions the employees lost their ESOP retirement funds as they will thier pension plans. It's so sad what these employees have had to endure over the years.

 

[WorldTraveler]

It's also worth noting that after a couple rounds of trying to replace veteran airline managers at several airlines (Delta and United among others), it is being seen that outsiders are no more able to turn legacy airlines around than the insiders that preceded them. In fact, the real problems are structural and the outsiders haven't done anything to fix those problems.

Keep in mind that CO not only changed its network and went after some big untapped markets (like EWR) but also worked double time to improve labor relations with its employees. It is no surprise that AA has spent a huge amount of time and effort rebuilding relationships with its employees after making them endure cuts, a lesson not lost on Delta. Unfortunately, UA and US are probably too far gone to financially survive without pushing the employees over the brink, at which none of it matters anyway. Getting into chapter 11 is a death sentence.

 

[The Ronin]

It's also worth noting that after a couple rounds of trying to replace veteran airline managers at several airlines (Delta and United among others), it is being seen that outsiders are no more able to turn legacy airlines around than the insiders that preceded them. In fact, the real problems are structural and the outsiders haven't done anything to fix those problems.

Keep in mind that CO not only changed its network and went after some big untapped markets (like EWR) but also worked double time to improve labor relations with its employees. It is no surprise that AA has spent a huge amount of time and effort rebuilding relationships with its employees after making them endure cuts, a lesson not lost on Delta. Unfortunately, UA and US are probably too far gone to financially survive without pushing the employees over the brink, at which none of it matters anyway. Getting into chapter 11 is a death sentence.

[post="171628"][/post]​

Even though CAL has been there TWICE??? Hmmm....... :blink: