ECONOMIC SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAN

[eolesen]

Yes, but alternative fuels needs to go beyond simply electrifying. If you're generating electricity from natural gas or coal, you've simply moved the point where you're burning fossil fuels from the vehicle to the generating plant.

Cheap electricity from nuclear plants is one reason Germany, France, and the UK have such highly developed intercity rail networks.

The US needs cheaper electricity, which means either nuclear, hydro, wind, or solar. The first has tremendously high regulatory hurdles and capital costs, the second only works where geography cooperates, and last two require lots of real estate to make it effective.

Sadly, the US has build less less than a small handful of new nuclear plants since the late 1980's. As perverse as it might sound, the environmentalists would rather see millions of tons of particulate going into the air from burning coal than to create a couple hundred spent fuel rods which can buried underground to live out the rest of it's half lives.

 

[kirkpatrick]

If you look at the population density on a map, though (US Pop. Density per 2000 Census), you will see that outside of those areas, our density is adequate for a rail system.

I did, and your maps make my point for me. The only place where our population density justifies an extensive intercity rail system is in the heavily populated northeast corridor, and that is, in fact, the only place where you'll find such a system today.

In fact...the density in the majority of the US is the same or better than Switzerland which is known as the model for rail systems throughout the world.

Again, you make my point for me. The majority of the population in Switzerland is in the five major cities (Geneva, Lausanne, Bern, Basel, Zurich) in the northern least mountainous part of the country. In fact, the driving distance from Geneva to Zurich is only 180 miles.

I'd say that as long as lines aren't laid to serve the Bismark to Omaha routes, a rail system is quite feasible here.

There are a few places outside of the northeast corridor, like southern FL (Tri-Rail) and Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit which might support local rail service but try connecting those points. Suddenly you have a vast network of tens of thousands of miles of track to be maintained and long distances between major cities. Even a 200 mph train from Chicago to LA stopping only in a few major cities along the way would take well over 12 hours. Hence the airplane.

Don't get me wrong. I love trains. I'd like nothing more than to see a vast network of modern, clean high-speed trains crisscrossing the nation (well, maybe after I'm recalled!). I live on Long Island thirty miles from Manhattan and nearly always take the LIRR into the city. At peak hours there is a train every twenty minutes, and trains are at least hourly even on weekends and late at night. The subway system in New York has over 450 stations and carries four million riders daily. And unlike the little systems built in places like Atlanta and St. Louis, the NY subway can actually take you from point to point, not just from a few select suburbs to the airport or city center. It works for one reason: population density is sufficient to support such a service.

MK

 

[Ch. 12]

ModerAAtor-

That is why I mentioned hydrogen and not electricity. I understand that electricity needs a fuel. When I mention Honda and Kia, I do so b/c the countries in which they are based are working on real solutions to energy issues (not just electricity...but hydrogen) and they will have both a way to use other fuels and the infrastructure for it before long and we will still refuse to spend $$ on science to research it.

kirkpatrick-

I made no such points for you. Look harder at the map and then look at pop. densities for European countries. You will see that most of the east coast and the midwest have comparable densities today. Now think back 100 years to when Europe began really developing its pax rail service. Their density was much less than what ours is today. Our density is much of the reason for not being able to build the infrastructure today b/c the costly parts are those where we would have to displace homes/businesses to build the infrastructure.

Regarding Switzerland...their rail system is much more vast than 5 cities like you allude. Please see this link which has only Swiss Rails routes and not the other private rail lines that make up even more of the system. Swiss Rail Map Pretty complex, huh?

And maintaining a system in the US where distances are not as vast as you think would be no more expensive than Swiss maintenance b/c their system is made up of mountainous terrain and literally hundreds of tunnels, etc. And b/c of their mountainous terrain, the 180 miles as the crow flies from ZRH to GNV is a lengthy trip by time standards. Broaden your view to the entire european network and you will notice that they have an expansive network from the West to the East and densities are the same as in the us...variable. But the rail goes throughout.

My point is that it is too late to build a network here. We pushed for oil consumption for too long and missed the boat on transportation infrastructure. You exaggerate my point by brining up Chicago to LA when in fact, like Europe, the long hauls will still be mostly air travel. Carve out the northern rockies as I said and you have a dense-enough area (please re-read the maps I linked to as ALL of the east and midwest and the pacific corridor fell at or above much of europe's density). But it is too late and we are too reliant on oil. Search for alternatives? No way...we didn't learn when it came to rail...why learn now?

 

[eolesen]

That is why I mentioned hydrogen and not electricity.

In the last half, yes, because it was in the context of cars from Honda and Kia (which I glossed over when I read it the first time).

In the first statement, it wasn't in the same context. Hydro also refers to hydro-electric, i.e. lots and lots of water falling thru gravity turbines....

 

[FWAAA]

Ch 12 and FWAAA,

Not sure if you ever seen the documentary called the "End of Suburbia" but it goes along with both of you are saying. Kind of explains how and why things are the way they are in this country with regard to mass transit and the like. It's an eyeopener for sure. One of the guys out at work brought it in but ocassionally it is on link tv.

http://www.linktv.org/programming/programD...n.php4?code=end

Link to it is here..http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out. 🙂

 

[Ch. 12]

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out. 🙂

Yes...thanks AMFAMAN. The synopsis makes it sound very interesting and very relevant. I'll have to watch.

In the first statement, it wasn't in the same context. Hydro also refers to hydro-electric, i.e. lots and lots of water falling thru gravity turbines....

Sorry for the confusion. Guess that's where too many keyboard shortcuts and abbrevs can lead to confusion! I definitely meant Hydrogen...the kind not mixed with Oxygen 🙂

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Don't know if you were being facecious but the reason that people are moving further and further from their jobs is b/c wage increases (not just this industry) have far under-paced cost of living increases where employers operate. Despite the bogus economic data that has been coming out, the only group getting richer is the top 3%. The rest of us see pay cuts or at best, very modest increases while our costs of living are outpacing our wages. Kind of like slowly sliding down an icy hill. You work harder but keep moving backwards. So my long-winded response is that it is becoming more and more cost-prohibitive to live anywhere near your employer.

I'm totally sincere and I totally support your observation.

 

[RowUnderDCA]

Ah.... commuter rail is very near and dear to me. I use it to get to/from work daily (and have to catch my train in a few minutes, so I'll try to be brief!).
Commuter rail or light rail is also fairly established in Dallas and the Palm Beach-Miami corridor. It is either under consideration, starting up or expanding in places like ABQ, IAH, BNA, AUS, and DEN.

If I'm not mistaken, more than a few of those are "RED" states, so please don't try too hard to turn this into a political football. It's really just a factor of when those cities expanded into major metro areas.

Tell that to Karl Rove and his minions (Bush0 who make decisions about war and peace and security based on how it will politically out flank the Democrats and elect more Republicans. It's not the urbanites (or even blue staters) that are making these and MUCH MORE DIRE issues political. It's the administration.

Why on earth would they not do the simple thing of complying with the accomodating FISA laws to conduct pretty run of the mill surveillance with proper warrants? Because they wanted to get caught and to paint those concerned with a law abiding adminstration and simple civil liberties as somehow anti-security.

So, don't for a minute think that the continued, pro-oil industry stance of the adminstration is not part of Rove's grand plan for the GOP. They're certainly digging the hole deeper and deeper. We'll see who gets buried first.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Amtrak was created during the Penn Central bankruptcy back during the 1970's --- same event which gave birth to Conrail.

Not a redstate/bluestate thing at all. Give up the sour grapes already!

Ain't nobody going to build light rail since the enviros raised their profile. Besides, you need population density for that and McMansions are not exactly dense. Except for the occupants of course.

Nothing to worry about re oil supplies. Our good friends north of the border are going to pull it all out of the oil sands eh.

They've got enough oil in those sands of Alberta to make the Saudis look like, well, look silly.

But save the racist comments here folks. Your insecurities are showing.

And oh -- Jake Brace is STILL a disgrace and won't take fuel hedges.

Jake will take a bonus and stock options tho....


(oh yeah, forget to echo another complaint)

"why is this thread on the AA board"

 

[eolesen]

"why is this thread on the AA board"

Because it's the only thing PTO knows nothing about? 😉

I'm sure he has probably never seen a train (although he will now claim that he could fix one), and thinks Iran is something he did when he walked into a liquor store and saw someone with an AMFA shirt behind the counter...

 

[Kev3188]

Because it's the only thing PTO knows nothing about? 😉

I'm sure he has probably never seen a train (although he will now claim that he could fix one), and thinks Iran is something he did when he walked into a liquor store and saw someone with an AMFA shirt behind the counter...

That's comedy gold, sir.....(golf clap)

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Because it's the only thing PTO knows nothing about? 😉

I'm sure he has probably never seen a train (although he will now claim that he could fix one), and thinks Iran is something he did when he walked into a liquor store and saw someone with an AMFA shirt behind the counter...

Wow, Former Moderator has a sense of humor. I am genuinely impressed.

 

[wonderboy]

Because it's the only thing PTO knows nothing about? 😉

I'm sure he has probably never seen a train (although he will now claim that he could fix one), and thinks Iran is something he did when he walked into a liquor store and saw someone with an AMFA shirt behind the counter...

Things are improving!

 

[local 12 proud]

Because it's the only thing PTO knows nothing about? 😉

I'm sure he has probably never seen a train (although he will now claim that he could fix one), and thinks Iran is something he did when he walked into a liquor store and saw someone with an AMFA shirt behind the counter...

...OMG I spewed pepsi thru my nostrils on this one

 

[JS]

Yes...thanks AMFAMAN. The synopsis makes it sound very interesting and very relevant. I'll have to watch.
Sorry for the confusion. Guess that's where too many keyboard shortcuts and abbrevs can lead to confusion! I definitely meant Hydrogen...the kind not mixed with Oxygen 🙂

H2 is not a source of energy; it is merely a storage method. Hydrogen does not exist in free form other than a miniscule amount floating around in the atmosphere. You have to invest energy to create H2 which is then released when you burn it, resulting in H2O.

H2 can be created fairly cheaply by stripping off the hydrogen atoms from natural gas, but that doesn't address the problem of our reliance on fossil fuels.