Esop And Pilots

[Hopeful]

Well, at the Local union meeting, we had a pilot representative give a marvelous presention on an ESOP where the pilots would have the largest piece of the pie!
In this pie, the pilot group would have the majority seats on the board.

I understand that the pilot group wants to perserve the pay and pensions, but, nothing personal, I don't want to work for another union group!

 

[DFWCC]

Can anyone name an major ESOP company that is successful?
I think the unions would end up fighting each other. Owners would then sell off their stock and the Carl Ichons (sp) would come in and take control for a mere pittance.

 

[aafsc]

Can anyone name an major ESOP company that is successful?
I think the unions would end up fighting each other. Owners would then sell off their stock and the Carl Ichons (sp) would come in and take control for a mere pittance.

[post="263523"][/post]​

ESOPs have always failed. The AA pilots see the handwriting on the wall in terms of pensions. Just about all the other airline pilots (U,UA,NW,DL) have had their pensions terminated in bankruptcy or have agreed to freeze them (no more accruing benefits). Defined benefit plans are more expensive (especially when your competitors no longer have them) and the AA pilots might see this as a way to keep their DB pension in addition to getting their concessions back plus raises (remember the UA pilots in their ESOP?). This will come at the expense of the other groups. You thought Crandall and Carty hated you, the pilots will make them look like pussycats.

 

[Hopeful]

ESOPs have always failed. The AA pilots see the handwriting on the wall in terms of pensions. Just about all the other airline pilots (U,UA,NW,DL) have had their pensions terminated in bankruptcy or have agreed to freeze them (no more accruing benefits). Defined benefit plans are more expensive (especially when your competitors no longer have them) and the AA pilots might see this as a way to keep their DB pension in addition to getting their concessions back plus raises (remember the UA pilots in their ESOP?). This will come at the expense of the other groups. You thought Crandall and Carty hated you, the pilots will make them look like pussycats.

[post="263538"][/post]​

I have had a few conversations with various pilots about maintenance outsourcing and they, the ones I spoke to, could give a rat's ass about who fixes their airplanes. One of them outright stated the company should outsource everyone of us to make AA more profitable.

Yea, I want the pilots running the company!

 

[777 fixer]

I have had a few conversations with various pilots about maintenance outsourcing and they, the ones I spoke to, could give a rat's ass about who fixes their airplanes. One of them outright stated the company should outsource everyone of us to make AA more profitable.

Yea, I want the pilots running the company!

[post="263566"][/post]​

You should have told him that using his logic US Air and United should be swiming in money by now.

 

[777 fixer]

I have had a few conversations with various pilots about maintenance outsourcing and they, the ones I spoke to, could give a rat's ass about who fixes their airplanes. One of them outright stated the company should outsource everyone of us to make AA more profitable.

Yea, I want the pilots running the company!

[post="263566"][/post]​

You should have told him that using his logic US Air and United should be swiming in money by now.

 

[Connected1]

You can say that again.

 

[UALDC767]

Can anyone name an major ESOP company that is successful?
I think the unions would end up fighting each other. Owners would then sell off their stock and the Carl Ichons (sp) would come in and take control for a mere pittance.

[post="263523"][/post]​

Outside of the airline industry yes....UPS...SAIC.....

Within? Umm TWA: nope...UAL: nope....UsAirways: nope

But the employees and the ESOP at both were not the cause of the financial problems at either airline. Take UAL.....55% employee owned but only 3 BOD seats out of 12 (might have been 14, can't remember at this moment) Not exactly in control even with some super voting rights over limited issues. And certainly not doing the day to day management.

That being said. I would stay away, far away, from any ESOP that was structured along the lines of UAL's. You take concessions in return for stock...but stock that you couldn't sell until you retired or quit the company!!!! So lets see, a paycut and pension reduction for 6 + years versus some stock that may be worth more/less then when you get it (in my case 25+ years down the road). NO THANKS!!!!!!

And after 6 years of concessions, in a time when the company was recording record profits, why shouldn't the ESOP employees return to, at a minimum, their previous wages/benefits? Since we were no longer getting any stock, we expected to get pack our pay. And management promised to have a new contract in place prior to the old one expired. Didn't exactly go as planned...

And the rest as they say....is history. Just depends on whose version you read.

DC

 

[AMFAMAN]

Well, at the Local union meeting, we had a pilot representative give a marvelous presention

[post="263521"][/post]​

Just wondering why the almighty AFL-CIO twu allows a non-AFL-CIO union member in its hall. I've been tossed out just for supporting a non-AFL-CIO union, why should he be allowed in? :down: Remember, the twu has stated it thousands of times, "all non-AFL-CIO unions are not unions."

 

[enough already]

Just wondering why the almighty AFL-CIO twu allows a non-AFL-CIO union member in its hall. I've been tossed out just for supporting a non-AFL-CIO union, why should he be allowed in? :down: Remember, the twu has stated it thousands of times, "all non-AFL-CIO unions are not unions."

[post="263653"][/post]​

There you go trying to throw logic and facts into it. :blink:

 

[AMFAMAN]

There you go trying to throw logic and facts into it. :blink:

[post="263663"][/post]​

Sorry....

 

[777 fixer]

Well, at the Local union meeting, we had a pilot representative give a marvelous presention on an ESOP where the pilots would have the largest piece of the pie!
In this pie, the pilot group would have the majority seats on the board.

I understand that the pilot group wants to perserve the pay and pensions, but, nothing personal, I don't want to work for another union group!

[post="263521"][/post]​

Exactly when did this pilot give this presentation and where?

 

[Hopeful]

Exactly when did this pilot give this presentation and where?

[post="263717"][/post]​

Local 562 JFK this past Tuesday's monthly membership meeting.

 

[777 fixer]

Local 562 JFK this past Tuesday's monthly membership meeting.

[post="263735"][/post]​

I find it odd that the pilots would be giving ESPO presentations at a mechanics local membership meeting. Has the company approached the pilots over a possible ESOP? If so why is this the first time anyone has heard of this. I figure something like this would have spread like wildfire across the company and the news wire.

 

[eolesen]

I don't know of a single employee who would find an ESOP to be a smart move...