Firehawk In Canada ?

[mawddawg]

I have heard rumur that Ont Gov has been checking into the purchase of three
Blackhawks to have them converted to Firehawks ? Great thought ? Why would they not just hire the aircraft that are here now with some fair contract ? Present deal 200- 300 hours at ? rate and they feel cheated ? Try the cost of running a Firehawk program!! I'm sure the people in the Ont fire system will be able to show the Firehawks should go ahead after all its a empire looking to be built! I also thought transport would not allow restricted Cat helicopters to be used in Fire Control ? KA 32? ,Skycranes , vertols all under STD CAT? I think not ! What are your guys thoughts ?

 

[skullcap]

I agree that it is probably not a civy certified a/c, maybe they plan to start their own airforce. Pretty hard to justify that to the taxpayers when they don't even differentiate between hiring a 204,205, 212. Just dollars, since they don't use the love seats, they apparently(ha) do the same job. Not sure how many a firehawk carries but doubt if it hold more than 10 pax(albeit at 140 kts).

Probably buy 6 or 7 new 407s for one firehawk, would already have the crews and could sell those wretched Astars to the poor out west. Seems like a waste to me, not like they need the tank and twins for overflying urban areas fighting fire like the U.S. Gotta hire that same salesman for myself, sounds like a good one.

sc 🙄 😀

 

[mawddawg]

Not sure how to make a link but have a look at this for some idea of costs
http://www2.co.la.ca.us/supdocs/sops2000/SD5886.HTM

 

[Randy_G]

Well talking with the OMNR guys last summer, they would get Sikorsky to certify the Firehawk. Since they have an OC, they must be certified in order for the OMNR to use them. They would be new S-70 Firehawks just like L.A. got, not surplus from what I've been told.

Apparently, the Firehawk can take 2 full I.A. crews, all their gear, and 1.8 hrs of fuel (with the 1,000 gal belly tank installed). All at 140 knots. The cabin in a S-70 is quite large, and doesn't have a big chunk taken out like the 205/212/412. MGW for the Firehawk is something like 23,000 lbs. so you can't really compare it to the old mediums. It's also only 10' bigger overall.

They were looking to buy new mediums, ideally they wanted 212's, but Bell was going to charge the same price as a new 412, but required a minimum order of 6. OMNR only wanted 3 a/c, so asked what the price of 3 VFR 412's would be. It was going to cost them $6 million USD each. A few questions later, Sikorsky was telling them ~ $8 million USD each for the Firehawks. For 2 mil more, they get a much more capable aircraft.

Cheers

 

[widgeon]

I noticed in last copy of vertical that Brown Helicopter had 3 hawks for sale ,and the calgary gooseneck ad had a blackhawk on the back of their trailer . coincidence or what.

 

[Vertical Mag]

The Firehawks that Brown Helicopters is selling (and the same that Gooseneck was carrying), are ex-Hong Kong Police. They replaced them with EC 155s. According to Brown, they have received a considerable amount of interest from the US AND Canada since running the ad in Vertical. But they are looking for US$8 million a piece (all low-time machines) - a new Firehawk is in US$12 million range. So the sticker shock may prohibit MNR from buying them.

I have heard though that MNR is VERY interested in replacing the AStars with Koalas.

 

[canook pilot]

Why would anyone want to run a firehawk! Yes they can haul alot of water only if they can keep them flying. We had one on a fire down in Moab Ut. and it spent more time waiting for parts than it did flying.
They would be better off contracting it out and let the operator pay for the down time instead of the tax payers. :down:

 

[skullcap]

Lets see 3 x 6 million = 18 million for 3 honest to goodness canadian goods 212's

3 x 8+ million = 24 million for 3 WHEELED aircraft without the experience crews(probably have in get some help from the US) aircraft with parts availability which sucks.

My book still says to buy local, even if you bought the expensive 212's you could buy another 2 407s on top to even begin to compare to the firehawk. Plus what about the spares and such.

Ridiculous waste of money.


Company out west used a Puma last year to do the same job and alot cheaper than the firehawk. Believed they picked up 3 or 4 rap crews and hauled butt at 140 kts. At around a million a pop for the thing, you can spend a lot of time and money before coming up to 8 million!!!!!!!

Not sure why they need new aircraft when its ok to go to the cheapest bidder everytime to put their crews in?

Oh am supposed to lighten up,,,,,,,,how bout those leafs and senators eh?

Sorry.

 

[skullcap]

Mawwdawg;

Have read your link, am in even worse mood. It would have you believe that there are only two worthy aircraft in the world available to them, the 412 and Firehawk. Thats like comparing 407 to 206A. For a country so much a firm believer in single engine night work they sure don't seem to want to carry a tank full of water around in the day with one motor.

The fact they are selling there old 205s and then probably hiring them back from operators to fight the same fires is hypocritic, probably why they are not so keen on singles, have to justify the means. Single engine safety smafety!

Taxpayers should be made aware of this fiasco prior to piddling away millions in Ontario.

:down:

 

[mawddawg]

Randy:
Well talking with the OMNR guys last summer, they would get Sikorsky to certify the Firehawk. Since they have an OC, they must be certified in order for the OMNR to use them. They would be new S-70 Firehawks just like L.A. got, not surplus from what I've been told

Surprise surprise the OMNR research crew( Paid by the budget of the fire suppression) is looking at the ex Hong Kong aircraft that are not civil certed.
this at I would think 8 mil each IF they buy all 3 units. Plus Fire hawk conversion
at ? it would work out close to 12 mil each I believe. This is if you use the LA budget. Seems strange to pay the CREW to research this! All this seems to be for
a Dept that can't seem to justify paying what ? 2300.00 cnd for a 214? Let alone make the company ferry to their job for free! Maybe they don't need a helicopter dept at all when the private industry is crawling over each other to give them the
helicopter at cost? How does this happen? HAC aware of this?

Skullcap: The strange thing is that link is from LA proposal for funding which was granted. Some of the old end of service life Bell 205A1'S that they refer to in the budget proposal are the same aircraft that flew this year for the OMNR ! and for the USFS ! If they were at the end of their service life then way are we not seeing them in the form of a BEER CAN ! Strange how things are presented by Government Types to justify a new program. Maybe the OMNR CREW needs a training session with the LA people to get this project past the new PM Martin chq kitting dept.

CTD: How does one go about getting a used Military helicopter certified to be used in Canada?

Food for thought is it not?

Down with any government helicopters in the commercial market period

 

[Vertical Mag]

According to Brown, the conversion from S-70 (These are S-70s, not UH-60s) to Firehawk is about US$1 million a pop. These would not have the complete EMS-type configuration that the LA Firehawks have. Keep in mind too that there is a company in the southern US flying a UH-60 with a bucket, so who says they would even have to convert them with a tank. But that's a whole new story of tank vs bucket. :wacko:

 

[skullcap]

So for 9 million a pop you'd have a specialized aircraft that few if any Canadians would have experience on, wheels which are not the best in most pads, fast bucket machine. Visibility out of this a/c is poor to say the least for confined area work, instrument panel is larger than some small towns so would probably need a spotter. Probably need a bubble door to see out to do vertical reference work so Vne would drop. What a crock of .......!

If you wanted to put the tank on have to put on the extended landing gear....that was what, a million and a half.

There are used 214ST's for sale, super fast heavy lifter with skids. 214B's out there, put tank on goes fast or bucket like crazy, or ......hey hire us(commercial operators) to do it like we have everywhere else. We work cheap, train ourselves, and maybe, just maybe have experience fighting fire. Not many countries in the world have such a large force of wandering band of airborne fire fighters who when not needed do something else to keep the wolves away. Jeez, why not give out some decent contracts and keep us folks in business.

One of the most populated provinces with huge tracts of forests has the least amount of medium lift aircraft per capita in Canada, and they want to purchase specialized aircraft to fight fire? Guess what put out contracts, this builds income within the country which inturn gives out more jobs which builds a bigger taxbase which in the whole brings more money into the economy of Canada. Not sure but maybe the MNR pilots may not be quite so pleased to have the number of pilots and engineers DECREASED as the whole rotory wing budget gets sucked up in only a few helicopters.

So other than Sikorsky and the Hong Kong gov't who the hell benefits from this?

I more bothered than a bin full of bees.

 

[mawddawg]

Mike : Did you check out the link I posted? If I read right the LA a/c are not standard cat. Is that what you get from it? The Hong Kong a/c left USA WITHOUT A STANDARD C OF A ! This would mean they would most likely have to be given to Sikorsky to be recertified. Kind of one way street . They will charge about 3 to 4 mil to convert as not to compete with a new firehawk. It is called a Monopoly as far as I can see and the Canadian taxpayer is paying What ? to fund a study to see if they want to play? It is not easy to show conformity to a standard C of A all of the drawings and manuals are usually with the Manufacture. There is a lot of MD 500s in Israel for sale with this exact problem. What do you guys think of this math

Purchase 3 a/c $8,000,000 usd x 1.32 = 10,560,000 each x3 = 31,680,000 CND
recert to firehawk est.@ $2,000,000 usd x 1.32 = 2,640,000 each x3 = 7,920,000 CND
water tanks/extended gear $1,300,000 usd x 1.32 = 1,716,000 each x3 = 5,148,000 CND
for ground support equipment $ 600,000 usd x 1.32 = 792,000 792,000 CND
--------------
$45,540,000 CND




Hourly support cost from Sikorsky 600 hrs min per year for 10 years X 3 =1800 x $989.00 =1,780,280x1.32=$ 2,349,864 CNDx 10 years with cap rate of average 8% = $25,378,531 CND

insurance ??? help me here new operation no track record on type, irreplaceable aircraft what you say 7% ? 15,000,000
x 7%= $1,050,000 per year x 10 years = $10,500,000 CND

crew cost 18 pilots @ 75,000,000 year =$1,350,000 CND x 10 =$13,500,000 CNDx 3% increase= $13,905,000 CND

Maint cost 9 AME'S @ $50,000,000 year = $450,000 CND x 10 = $4,500,000x 3% increase= $ 4,635,000 CND
----------------
$99,958,531 CND
divided by 10 year plan = $9,995,853 divided by 1800.00 hours a year = $5553.25 CND per hour

Training ??

Spares ??

Hanger ??

Overhead staff ??

Cost for 10 year contract at cost should be about $6000 CND per hour @ 600 hours per year ! And they cry so hard for a
205A1++ at $2100 CND per hour with a 4 day hire!!!

 

[skullcap]

exactly!!!

 

[Heli Ops]

The cost to convert those HK aircraft are about $3.5m USD at least and thats coming from Jeanette who is the Firehawk program person at Sikorsky. They are nowhere near worth the price Brown is asking according to Sikorsky sources. Sikorsky was actually offered the aircraft to convert and onsell to LA County and a couple of other potential customers but they didnt want to get involved in it. The HK aircraft were also treated as ex mil aircraft incountry and all parts etc had to be kept in special stores and any changes to them had to be approved through congress because they were classed as a controlled item.

The LA County machines are restricted cat and are machines that were destined, I think, for Brunei, hence the radome on the front. Base model price for Firehawk is around $11.5mil and thats a very basic aircraft. I think Lee Benson said their ones are around the $15 mark.

LA County dont use a spotter out of their aircraft and according to pilots vis is not that bad, considering. Not my opionion, just their feedback. All the time I was at LA County they seemed to have one in the hangar. Maint man hours to flight hours for these aircraft is very high and thats open info from LA County.

Belly tanks vs buckets for the Firehawk, whole different kettle of fish. If they fly it from the right seat as LA County do then it would be a #### to see what you are doing as seat is quite a ways in from the door and if flown from the left not sure how high the collective comes up. Mind you could always stick a dart window in the floor.

Heli Ops