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I Guess They Really Need The Money

just ask Jet Blue.

You mean that airline that has topped the industry in customer loyalty for 2 straight years? "JetBlue continues to delight customers in the airline sector. Customers cited the company's low fares, great customer service, and in-flight features as reasons they would recommend the airline."

Jim
 
Yea, not sure why folks are so quick to tear apart a customer that is just giving reasons why your management team does not get it. It is nice to have pride in where you work. Sometimes when others say things that seem upsetting they are not talking to you directly. I think this may be the case in this instance. Customers and former customers are trying to let you know what is working and what is not. This is solely directed at the folks in charge and is for your information. You should not take it personally. If anything, you as an employee knows the way you are being treated by the folks in charge. You should empathize with a customer that is trying to give you business and is being treated the same way by your management. Hard to be loyal to a company that has no real respect for its income source.

UPNAWAY tried to wrongly argue that service and amenities don't make money for an airline. That might be the case on a short haul flight. I would beg to differ on longer flights. Even US Airways isn't that clueless. If amenities made no difference they would not have Envoy or those fancy lie flat seats. Amenities and service do matter no matter what your leaders try to convince you of.
 
Jim, You are aware that Jet Blue has no revenue premium dispite how much people like them!
 
Jim, You are aware that Jet Blue has no revenue premium dispite how much people like them!
The question is are you aware Jet Blue doesn't charge a revenue premium because of their low costs...

Jim
 
That is incorrect Jim, they certainly would like to charge more money if they could but they cannot charge a revenue premium because they can't! No Airline can!
In the same markets an Airline with all the bells and whistles must charge the same fair as an airline with no bells and whistles it is airline economics 101! The only difference between any of the major US Airlines as far as revenue producing ability is how strong their hubs are and how many markets do they have with little to no competition. They only caviat to this is ones reliability and service could be so bad as to drive away business but aside form that spending a bunch of money on "nice things" is generaly a losing proposition in the industry.
 
Nope - B6, WN, probably F9 all charge lower fares that the legacies then have to match where they compete. I guarantee you that if B6 raised it's fares on a route where it and US compete, US would raise theirs the next day. The difference is that the true lcc's can make a profit on fares that result in loses for the legacies. For last year B6's CASM was nearly 2 cents lower than US' while their PRASM was about 1.5 cents lower - both mainline. So B6 is getting a bigger premium over cost than US. Without the first bag fee, with free IFE, with greater legroom. It's not that the lcc's can't get a larger premium - they could charge more than they do - it's that they choose not to.

Jim
 
You are missing the point. I said that in-flight amenities don't drive revenue. You arguing their lower cost let them charge a lower fair (I don't deny that) but that is not the debate. The debate is does having a nice in-flight product produce revenue and the answer to that is a resounding no!
 
Nope - B6, WN, probably F9 all charge lower fares that the legacies then have to match where they compete. I guarantee you that if B6 raised it's fares on a route where it and US compete, US would raise theirs the next day. The difference is that the true lcc's can make a profit on fares that result in loses for the legacies. For last year B6's CASM was nearly 2 cents lower than US' while their PRASM was about 1.5 cents lower - both mainline. So B6 is getting a bigger premium over cost than US. Without the first bag fee, with free IFE, with greater legroom. It's not that the lcc's can't get a larger premium - they could charge more than they do - it's that they choose not to.

Jim

What's interesting Jim is that no less than BBB explained your point EXACTLY as you did. Primary difference is he did it on a cocktail napkin.

One might want to take note that BBB is the CEO of a PROFITABLE airline as opposed to a Kool-Aide drinking F/A.

One of the reasons Jet Blue doesn't raise prices and make more money is because EVERY mile they fly on a route against any legacy they make a small margin and the legacy bleeds cash in order to compete on price. This is why you used to see $900 fares PHL-BOS.

See this is the lie of the Parker/Kirby regime. You CAN NOT have one of the highest CASM's in the industry and be a Low Cost Carrier. You can change your stock ticker to LCC but it doesn't make you one anymore than standing in a garage makes me a car.
 
The debate is does having a nice in-flight product produce revenue and the answer to that is a resounding no!

You'll have a hard time convincing me of that. Where's your data showing that B6 gets no extra revenue in spite of it's in-flight product - that it could drop all the amenities and still produce the same revenue.

Jim
 
No airline can price their product higher than the competition so their inflight product is meaningless from the point of selling a ticket. It is a commidities busness not a service industry at least as far as selling a ticket from point A to B.
 
Actually UP, the amenities DO affect revenue.

If airline A and airline B price the same (or within a couple of dollars), and airline A has on board amenities while airline B does not, most people will choose the one with the amenities--and these folks are the more knowledgeable ones and the ones most likely to return...

Jim's point was made to us by BBB--and on a napkin as well-I remember that vividly....and ironically (or not perhaps), look which airilne he's running today--where they manage your expectations and always under-deliver 🙂

Part of the issue at US is it is trying to be both an LCC and a legacy carrier, and doing neither well...

Better to under promise and over deliver than the other way around.
 
Wrong, have you guys not been paying attention to the industry over the last 20 years? There is no evidence that nicer in-flight product produces higher ticket prices, zero! It does not happen. Midwest airlines didn’t have a revenue premium despite having by far the better in-flight experience. Jet Blue and Virgin have experienced the exact same thing. Customers like them and it might build some customer loyalty but it does nothing for the fares, because the two are not related at all. Now you very well might be able to drive some ancillary revenue once the ticket has been purchased and that is what airlines are finding with things like ala cart pricing.
I am not advocating having a crap service either. I think a smart airline should do a lot of the “little things” better, that don’t cost a ton but improve the overall experience. It is good for both customers and employee moral too. But the reason US has lower RASM is because of the cities we primarily serve (and the amount of direct competition in those cities) and not because we need to upgrade the in-flight experience.
From a employee stand point we are not going to get higher wages by spending more on the product and we can’t have industry standard wages if we don’t have industry standard revenue unless we can have a significantly lower CASM and that also is not going to happen by spending more on the product. We obviously have to have a delicate balance between the two because of our RASM disadvantage.
 
Jet Blue and Virgin have experienced the exact same thing. Customers like them and it might build some customer loyalty but it does nothing for the fares, because the two are not related at all.

Not related at all? Don't you realize that PRASM is the product of not just fares, but load factor too??? Customer loyalty leads to repeat customers who tell their friends/co-workers which brings in more passengers. I asked and you ignored it - show me data that proves that B6 would have the same number of customers at the same fare levels if they did away with the amenities such as 1st bag free, IFE, extra legroom.

Otherwise it's just your opinion and a way to justify the lack of amenities on US.

Jim
 
Jim, go look at any of the airlines data, listen to their quarterly calls, read the analyst reviews. Look at things like revenue after major enhancements. It does not drive tickets sales only the fare does. This is not my opinion but that of almost every airline analyst and executive out there. After price, schedule and reliability might drive load factors a little but not IFE or Food or Glass etc…..

You still seem to miss the point for the vast majority of fliers airline tickets are bought as a commodity not a service. So price is the only decision factor and again this discussion was why is US's earning ability is lower than OALs and it is because of the markets served and not the service as many here keep repeating.
 
You still seem to miss the point for the vast majority of fliers airline tickets are bought as a commodity not a service. So price is the only decision factor and again this discussion was why is US's earning ability is lower than OALs and it is because of the markets served and not the service as many here keep repeating.

I for one would LOVE to see the supporting "metrics" on your point as it is one of perspective not facts right now.

What I do know for a fact is that multiple surveys show that all other things being equal, the airlines frequent flyer program will be the deciding factor. That's why in this era of declining service airlines are enhancing those programs.

The problem as I see it is the true LCC's now have the pricing power as opposed to the legacy carriers due to their growth in market share as they have expanded in general term while the legacy carrier continue to cede routes where the competition is fierce. (Think US @ LAS) and gouge customers where they have monopoly's on direct flights in an effort to recover lost revenue where they compete against LCC's.

Why do you think US has never gone into several what would seem to be obvious opportunities in South America? Many of these destinations have Spirit providing service. Spirit can price their tickets above cost and force US to bleed like a stuck on EVERY flight. Another example of an LCC having the pricing power. So in a sense the your point has some validity, to a point. YES, consumers are very price sensitive! Will they spend more to get more? YES the problem isn't that they won't spend more it's that they won't spend enough on a ticket to bridge the Price/Profit gap. So given that the LCC's now have the pricing power a consumer actually has some pretty good choices out there.

For the Ultra Cheap you have Spirit! An airline that frankly does IMO the best job of managing their customer's expectations. Customers are told to expect nothing and pay up for anything that resembles an amenity. Not my cup of Java, however you have to respect that they have a profitable business model.

The WN/F9/B6 value proposition. Fair Fares, good (not great) Frequent flyer programs. All three have a bit of a different twist on their on board experience. My personal preference is Frontier

Then we have the traditional hub and spoke gang, DL AA & CO/UA - These folks have much deeper coverage. None of the above are going to fly to Helena, MT anytime soon. But the three remaining legacy carriers will and usually for a pretty good premium. The also offer F/C service and have my overseas flight east and west. Most have put in some fees.

Then we have US Airways. Neither a true legacy despite membership in the Star Alliance or true LCC. Amenities are minimal and often below those of the LCC's. This airline is trying to emulate two business models. When it comes to fees it wants to be Spirit. When it comes to positioning in the market it acts like a legacy with an ULCC(NK) fee structure and a legacy route map with the a minimal attempt at providing legacy level service/amenities.

Frankly the reason US employees make on average 13% LESS than their peers on legacy carriers is that the leadership hasn't been able despite a healthy profit this year to find a way to consistently compete against any of the business models above. We know this because US has stated publically that all of the profit came from fees. So ponder what this years financials would look like if labor cost were 13% higher?

The two airlines that most clearly define who they are in the marketplace IMO are NK & WN. It would be prudent to note that they are both profitable and have been for awhile. Spirit struggled for a while until the new model took hold. My sources tell me that they are pretty much rolling in dough as much as any airline can be.

US is a failed business model that screws the employee and customer in order to earn a profit, pure and simple and the sooner we face that the sooner we can move on.
 

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