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I Guess They Really Need The Money

Actually UP, the amenities DO affect revenue.

If airline A and airline B price the same (or within a couple of dollars), and airline A has on board amenities while airline B does not, most people will choose the one with the amenities--and these folks are the more knowledgeable ones and the ones most likely to return...
Disagree.

Most U.S. travelers will choose the one with the frequent flier program they belong to or which best matches their needs, which means the one that offers the best chance of free flights / upgrades or other freebies in the future based on their travel patterns.

After that, most will choose the one with the most convenient schedule between the city pairs they need for that journey.

I think very few travellers will choose superior "amenities" on one particular flight or trip over overall convenience or FF status / awards.
 
Wrong, have you guys not been paying attention to the industry over the last 20 years? There is no evidence that nicer in-flight product produces higher ticket prices, zero! It does not happen. Midwest airlines didn’t have a revenue premium despite having by far the better in-flight experience. Jet Blue and Virgin have experienced the exact same thing. Customers like them and it might build some customer loyalty but it does nothing for the fares, because the two are not related at all. Now you very well might be able to drive some ancillary revenue once the ticket has been purchased and that is what airlines are finding with things like ala cart pricing.
I am not advocating having a crap service either. I think a smart airline should do a lot of the “little things” better, that don’t cost a ton but improve the overall experience. It is good for both customers and employee moral too. But the reason US has lower RASM is because of the cities we primarily serve (and the amount of direct competition in those cities) and not because we need to upgrade the in-flight experience.
From a employee stand point we are not going to get higher wages by spending more on the product and we can’t have industry standard wages if we don’t have industry standard revenue unless we can have a significantly lower CASM and that also is not going to happen by spending more on the product. We obviously have to have a delicate balance between the two because of our RASM disadvantage.

One thing that airline management has not payed attention to the last twenty years is the customer! You keep stating that amenities or in-flight product does not produce higher ticket prices. While that may be a true statement, pricing is certainly not the only factor. You are correct that customers are price sensitive. What you get for that price is also important. What you are describing works fine if you have a never ending stream of first time flyers that will only fly once in there life. It used to be that most of your revenue stream came from repeat customers. There is a reason the frequent flyer programs exist. It was once a great amenity. Now, you are even pimping status! One reason why you have lost a lot of your elite high dollar traveler is because there is more VALUE for their dollar elsewhere and they include more amenities and in-flight service.

A very good example is Philly to Boston round trip on March first return March second. Lets say I am not in a mileage program with US or any other carrier from those two cities as I just moved here from Canada. I can buy the cheapest ticket on US Airways at $230 round trip. That is until I check one bag at$25 because I have a piece of equipment that will not fit in the overhead. So add $50 round trip for my bag. I also want an isle seat but only choice seating is available. I have no idea the cost between these two cities but I will put it on the low side, say $10 per segment. Had a long meeting so a cocktail on the return flight sounds good. That will be $7.00 please! Hey, I need to change the flight time cause my meeting ran a little later. Don't forget that change fee! That is $50. Did I mention I am old fashion and like to conduct business on the phone. I get to pay another $30 for the privilege of speaking to a human who may not not even be located here. That brings me to a total of $380 not including tax. Folks, this is a non-refundable ticket. To be fair, I could spend $50 more round trip for my base ticket to be refundable. However all other ALA-CARTE pricing still applies making my total $430! I could even spend $1554 round trip for a refundable first class ticket and save the $7 on the drink!!!!!

OR, for $328 plus tax I could travel on Southwest round trip. This is there most expensive fare. What amenities do I get for the price? Booked ticket on phone for free. Fully refundable. Checked two bags at no extra charge. I got priority boarding, so I could grab whatever seat I desired at no extra charge. Was able to get one cocktail each way at no extra charge with a couple bags of peanuts. I was also able to change my flight for no extra fee. Again, that is their most expensive ticket. I could just pay for the cheapest ticket they had for those dates which was exactly the same price of the US Airways fare at $230 plus tax. The only thing I loose going that way is it is not fully refundable, priority boarding, and the free drink. Oh, and if there is a difference in fare I just pay the difference but no fee. I did not even consider that little fact with the US ticket. The feeling I get knowing exactly what I am getting for my money, Priceless!

What does this all mean? Well, you have done a good job of chasing elite, repeat passengers away. You are also doing a pretty good job of loosing the VALUE customer due to your crazy fee structure!

Admittedly, you are filling seats in record number and have managed to make a pretty good profit for the year. You say your profit is purely fees. I might be wrong, but I think this might come back to haunt you as people start value shopping their dollars. The will start looking at what amenities they are getting for their money. The airlines that catch on to this fact are going to have to start becoming competitive again.

I think your spreadsheet economic policies are reckless. You have taken the human factor out of your assumptions. If you think that amenities and service make no difference to your bottom line you are very much mistaken. If all you keep thinking about is movement of fares you are going to be in trouble.
 
Human factors are exactly what I am basing my view on. We love to talk about nice things or complain about the lack of them but in the end most 90%+ will not pay extra for those things we claim to love so much. People will pay more for nice Hotels, upscale restaurants but not airlines it really is a strange animal.
 
Human factors are exactly what I am basing my view on. We love to talk about nice things or complain about the lack of them but in the end most 90%+ will not pay extra for those things we claim to love so much. People will pay more for nice Hotels, upscale restaurants but not airlines it really is a strange animal.


Let's see the metrics! You pull a number out your arse and expect us to believe it. Why should we. You support a Management team with NO Credibility.

I'll reserve the right to comment further pending the presentation of facts.
 
Sounds to me like a management type who has convinced themselves they are absolutely right in how people will purchase airline tickets. Sorta like the idea that We will cut fares untill we have 80% market share, and then we will be good. Uhmmm....except you got that 80% market share and still running a loss. Guess you forget you need money to go with all those poeple...
 
OR, for $328 plus tax I could travel on Southwest round trip. This is there most expensive fare. What amenities do I get for the price? Booked ticket on phone for free. Fully refundable. Checked two bags at no extra charge. I got priority boarding, so I could grab whatever seat I desired at no extra charge. Was able to get one cocktail each way at no extra charge with a couple bags of peanuts. I was also able to change my flight for no extra fee. Again, that is their most expensive ticket. I could just pay for the cheapest ticket they had for those dates which was exactly the same price of the US Airways fare at $230 plus tax. The only thing I loose going that way is it is not fully refundable, priority boarding, and the free drink. Oh, and if there is a difference in fare I just pay the difference but no fee. I did not even consider that little fact with the US ticket. The feeling I get knowing exactly what I am getting for my money, Priceless!

I know a number of people who fly occasionally (2-3X/year) who will ONLY fly WN if it's an option. Who can blame them? If I flew under 25,000 miles/year, I would not fly the legacies, either. As US and its legacy competitors continue to increase their fees and add new fees to the mix, I think we will find more and more people catching on to the lure of WN's no-fee policy.

WN's policies reflect the fact that they care about their customers. US's policies do not, even though individual US employees, as a whole, do. (And US is not alone in this regard.)
 
Human factors are exactly what I am basing my view on. We love to talk about nice things or complain about the lack of them but in the end most 90%+ will not pay extra for those things we claim to love so much. People will pay more for nice Hotels, upscale restaurants but not airlines it really is a strange animal.
I see/hear it all the time. I can't cite a percentage, but 90% doesn't seem far off.
 
I see/hear it all the time. I can't cite a percentage, but 90% doesn't seem far off.
The same can be said about ALL the Amenities offered over the years. When meals were offered Everyone was a CRITIC and nothing was ever good enough.Don't even offer food and you would think some of these people are being subjected to a hunger strike. When Peanuts were provided they wanted Smoked Almonds or Honey Roasted. Throw pretzels into the mix and You see a revolt brewing ala Egypt. The pillow/blanket situation Should have been done years ago by ALL Airlines if for any reason, sanitation. Ala carte has been the norm in many businesses......hotels, car rentals, movie theatres, cruise ships etc. but for some reason all the Media wants to focus on is how the Big Airlines are always gouging whenever they have a chance. All one has to do is Observe a simple boarding process......just let ONE F/C seat remain unoccupied and You will see every Tom,Dick or Harry 'Lay Claim' to the token seat because they fell It could, it should, it IS M-i-n-e. That 10% may even be GENEROUS on a given day and even with some of them you may need a chisel to pry their wallets out. That is exactly why these fares are here, and why they will probably never go away.
 
[quote name='UPNAWAY' timestamp='1298345] We love to talk about nice things or complain about the lack of them but in the end most 90%+ will not pay extra for those things we claim to love so much. People will pay more for nice Hotels, upscale restaurants but not airlines it really is a strange animal.
[/quote]
EXACTLY! I'll never understand that mentality as long as I work in this business. What did it cost you to fill up the gas tank on your car rental on the way to the airport? Been grocery shopping lately? How about your utility bills? But god forbid I have to pay more than $100.00 each way for my ticket to Florida! 🙄

I will say this though, finally the low cost carriers, notably Southwest, are smartening up and raising their ticket prices to offset high fuel costs.
 
Hey, I need to change the flight time cause my meeting ran a little later. Don't forget that change fee! That is $50.
$150.00 dollar change fee plus the cost difference between old fare and new fare
 
$150.00 dollar change fee plus the cost difference between old fare and new fare

This is one thing I wish we could change. I do not like the "change fee" plus fare difference, although in many cases we are charging so little that its cheaper to just buy a new ticket. If we could do away with the change fee thing and just do away with the cheapie last minute tickets (before I get flack- we dont have them in every market but where I am theres enough competition that we do offer very good walk up fares) we could probably do about the same $ wise. No $150 change fee, but the new ticket is $150 more than the old ticket so we'd get the money, but it wouldnt be perceived as another "fee". Even WN doesnt offer "get away" fares at the last minute so any changes on them are up to full fare tickets if you dont change them early enough to get another "get away fare". This would be a more customer friendly approach as far as another fee, but I dont know if anyone who doesnt change their ticket and wanted a cheaper walk up last minute fare would agree that the change would be for the better. Everyones circumstance is going to be different, but I would think most people would want the cheaper fare and say let those who have to change pay for their change.
 
Listening to the frontline workers
???????????????????????????



This is one thing I wish we could change. I do not like the "change fee" plus fare difference, although in many cases we are charging so little that its cheaper to just buy a new ticket. If we could do away with the change fee thing and just do away with the cheapie last minute tickets (before I get flack- we dont have them in every market but where I am theres enough competition that we do offer very good walk up fares) we could probably do about the same $ wise. No $150 change fee, but the new ticket is $150 more than the old ticket so we'd get the money, but it wouldnt be perceived as another "fee". Even WN doesnt offer "get away" fares at the last minute so any changes on them are up to full fare tickets if you dont change them early enough to get another "get away fare". This would be a more customer friendly approach as far as another fee, but I dont know if anyone who doesnt change their ticket and wanted a cheaper walk up last minute fare would agree that the change would be for the better. Everyones circumstance is going to be different, but I would think most people would want the cheaper fare and say let those who have to change pay for their change.






On USAirways original ticket is worthless you paid the walkup fare. On WN the difference between "get away" and walkup is no way near USAirways because of the FEES and the fare structure and then you have a consumer wakeup call. The fees and fare additional collections are a MUST DO for all agents per management.NO exception
 
SWA is really in a class all by themselves and what they do is not reproducable or others would copy it. We could match all of their fees (or lack off) and policies tomorrow and it would not drive traffic and we would not be able to charge more for fares.
 
SWA is really in a class all by themselves and what they do is not reproducable or others would copy it. We could match all of their fees (or lack off) and policies tomorrow and it would not drive traffic and we would not be able to charge more for fares.


Correct and SWA has built a better mousetrap through leadership & vision not via spreadsheet and therein lies the difference. One company has those two highly desirable traits and the other has Ecel and their precious "metrics".

The final question then would be, "Over the last 30 years has leadership & vison been more profitable then management via Excell and metrics?"

The answer to the above can be supported by:
Which airline is the most highly unionized?
Which airline has the highest wages for its union members?
Which airline has a consistent reputation for customer satisfaction
Which airline has the fewest fees?

Seeing a pattern here or is it just me? There isn't enough Kool-Aide in Tempe to hide the truth.
 

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