Illegal Immigrants thinking twice about crossing the boarder

[MMB]

...Americans do not find those jobs to be appealing at those rates, or they would compete with the immigrants for the jobs. Again, that may largely be due to the minimum wage, but it was the Americans' choice to say that they will not do certain jobs unless the wages reach a certain limit....

Then why is it that when the INS cleaned out a couple companies here in Mass last year, there were 10 applications submitted, by legal workers, for every job opened up?

You asked for an example:
You and I both own a business that that relies heavily on manual labor. It doesn't matter what kind of business, it could be framing houses, picking lettuce, what ever... you choose one.

You are an honest, forthright employer. You pay your workers an honest wage for their work (Let's say $16 per hour), keep precise books; pay your taxes, etc. A stellar example of how a business should be operated.

I, on the other hand, am a little greedier. I hire criminaliens (invaders) at $18 an hour, hire a few legal workers at $15 an hour starting wage with the promise of a raise after 6 months, and play with the books to hide the criminaliens on the payroll.
With regards to the criminaliens I hire: I do not pay payroll taxes, workers comp insurance, or any of the other mandated fees associated with employing workers.
I do withhold taxes from the criminaliens wages, which is why some of them may actually believe they are paying taxes, but the money I withhold goes into my pocket.

Now the kicker: We both bid for contracts. You figure out what the contract would cost you, add in a small profit, and submit your bid. I do the same, but my costs are lower than yours. Not because I pay my workers less, (I actually pay more), but because of the other factors I already mentioned. This allows me to submit a bid that is lower than your cost, and still show a higher profit than you would have made, if you had been awarded the job.

This stuff is not made-up. I used to work for a concrete company in Denver that operated this way.

Now my questions to you:
Do you drop what you pay your workers to minimum wage in an effort to compete with me?
Do you throw your values out the window, along with your loyal and LEGAL workers, and compete with me on my terms?
Or do you sell your business to my brother, making it that much easier for us to bankrupt the next honest businessman?

Hence my reasoning for wanting *stiff* fines for hiring criminaliens, and for generous whistle blower rewards for ratting them out.

Lastly –
They are NOT IMMIGRANTS!
Half of my family immigrated here LEGALLY in the 1860’s. They had to have sponsors who had to take legal responsibility for their welfare. They signed documents stating the IMMIGRANTS would NOT displace established workers or become a burden on our economy. Many of them took menial jobs in local households as maids, cooks, etc., for little or no money, to help them learn English. They insisted that English be spoken in the home, because they understood that speaking the local language was a key factor in bettering themselves.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Good post MMB. I agree with alot of what you posted. I think there are times when the example you cited occurs. I think the illegal immigrants also take jobs from Americans because we are priced out because the "going rate" is below what Americans choose to accept because of our self mandated pricing floor. Although I don't care what Bush Jr. says, he believes that there are jobs that americans are not filling, and that is why he adopted his guest worker program.

On one hand, the illegals -- or criminaliens as your term of art -- take some jobs that would otherwise go to Americans at a higher price (whether through payroll taxes or otherwise). On that same hand, the illegal immigrants increase the supply of labor thereby lowering the average wages paid, often to a level below American standards. On the other hand, this extra supply of labor lowers labor costs, reducing product and service costs for the benefit of consumers. Those benefits to the consumers may, however, be nullified because many of those illegals avoid some taxes but receive tax related benefits.

Using most economic theories, one would suggest that more competition in labor markets is better (obviously not better for the person expecting a paycheck). However, most of those theories rely on an efficient market without any market anomalies. Here, the price floor the U.S. set as the minimum wage may be considered by some as an anomaly that contradicts an efficient market. So, I cannot honestly say whether competition from illegal immigrants in the U.S. is bad or inefficient.

Lastly, we would all be a bit naive to believe that the federal government, including the DOL and INS, does not have an overall strategy in using illegal immigrants. The U.S. has crafted its immigration policy by providing carrots or sticks for immigrants depending on our country's need for a cheap labor force. For example, in the 1910's to early 1920's, Congress responded to the needs of agricultural employers in the southwest by creating the first temporary-worker program. Once that need for cheap labor was gone, they used sticks. For example, to drive Mexicans back to Mexico during the Great Depression, the U.S. denied Mexican laborers many welfare benefits. Then, in the 40's and 50's when cheap labor was once again needed, the U.S. responded to wartime calls by agricultural employers for a Mexican fieldworker labor force. In the late 50's, the INS retook control over the border and expelled illegal migrant workers.

BTW, there have been studies done that show that most of the burdens due to illegal immigrants are concentrated on the local and state level. Some even say that the fed government receives millions of dollars in taxes from illegal immigrants, yet does not bear as much of the burden of lax immigration policies. This could explain why many states are attempting to handle the situation while the federal government is slow-going.

 

[MMB]

'Gilding the Lily'

Look around a little further out. You’re on a cruise ship looking at the swimming pool. There is a whole ocean around you. But at least you're looking.

The middle class is being slowly wiped out in the US. My example was a small, local one, because that was the easiest to explain. The same thing IS happening on a national scale, and both major parties, with their globalist views, AND corporate greed, are pushing it. THAT is why Bush Baby refuses to secure our boarders or do anything to stem the invasion from Mexico

A little light reading:
http://alanburkhart.blogspot.com/2006/06/d...ee-nations.html
http://www.infowars.com/articles/nwo/nafta...ing_through.htm
http://www.naftasuperhighway.info/
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=15497

The central corridor is going in now.
You are paying for it through federal taxes.
People along the corridor are paying higher local and state taxes.
My in-laws live just north of Austin. Besides their taxes doubling over the last few years, free roads that have been in use for decades now have toll booths.
And the central corridor is just the beginning. There are seven routes planned. (See the map at the third link.)

There isn’t a nickels worth of difference between a DC democrat or republican. Like any good magician, they are great at misdirection. They both point fingers at the other side while they stamp their feet and scream and holler. Then they head out to the golf course together where they discuss the real issues. The ones they don’t want the public to be watching. All the hype you hear from them, see on the news or read in the paper, is just a smoke screen to keep the middle class half asleep or focused in the wrong direction long enough that the process will be irreversible. In the mean time, they are shoring up their empires and, together with the corporate leaders, getting richer.

How do you boil a frog?
One degree at a time.

Take a good look at Mexico. If our leaders get their way, if people don’t stop falling for their political finger pointing and name calling, and open their eyes to what is really going on, we will be just like our corrupt and poverty stricken neighbor to the south.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

'Gilding the Lily'

Look around a little further out. You’re on a cruise ship looking at the swimming pool. There is a whole ocean around you. But at least you're looking.

I think I have looked far enough. Just because I do not take a position on an issue does not mean I have not seen the "ocean around me." I see it and I think I see it quite clearly. That doesn't, however, mean I am not susceptible to persuasion one way or the other... and I thank you for your posts.

It is obvious that there are social benefits that are being depleted by people who are not paying taxes. I have mentioned that in all my posts and to argue anything other than that would be plain stupid. But to also suggest that we do not see ANY benefits from a cheap labor pool would also be plain stupid. Obviously, many people on this board claim that the cons associated with the cheap labor pool outweigh the pros. I just happen to be neutral on the issue at this point in time.

I think there is a bigger picture at issue here as well... and that is whether the U.S. is going to try to create a North American Union that is similar in form the the European Union. If so, our immigration policies will change significantly. I will explain that although I am neutral right now, I am not nearly as much of a protectionist as others on this board, so I do not necessarily see a union as an unecessary evil.

 

[wnbubbleboy]

But to also suggest that we do not see ANY benefits from a cheap labor pool would also be plain stupid.

Any benifits gained are outwieghed by social services used.

Long story short: They are a blight on our country aided by big business and our courrupted polictical machine that view them as potential votes.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Any benifits gained are outwieghed by social services used.

Yeah, I think most people on this board feel the same way as you. Is that based off of anecdotal evidence in your community? I am not knocking anecdotal evidence... just curious as to the reasoning.

In Chicago and California I have seen mixed anecdotal evidence.

 

[North by Northwest]

I love it when people cite something when they have no idea what they are citing. You mention federal law. By federal law, are you citing the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996? I suppose you may have neglected to actually read the title of the federal law that significantly deals with immigrants. You can call them whatever you want... but you shouldn't harp on someone for calling them what they really are: immigrants, whether illegal or not.

Don't you tho...

I especially love it when people THINK they know something simply by reading Wikipedia then pretend they are an expert.

Spend the day on this:

U.S. Code as of: 01/03/05
Section 1325. Improper entry by ALIEN

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(B) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
© Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the
purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be
imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than
$250,000, or both.

Thus, in the eyes of US Federal law, they are termed an "illegal alien". Change the law and I will acquiesce and refer to them as illegal "immigrants".

Illegal ALIENS have NO RIGHT to be in this country. They certainly have no right to induced unnecessary hardship on ANY American be it through depressed wages, a victim of crime, or burden to the US taxpayer in ANY FORM.

Furthermore, the pandering of politicians to this phantom voting block is bizarre as they represent the lowest turnout of voters of any identifiable group in the American pop.

 

[delldude]

Hells bells....the place where I work is getting a new roof.....its a biggie,like $500,000.The company is from Fla who is doing the roof.They got about 6-10 'Undocumented persons'(a shot at being PC for NxNW)...Also they have about 6 regular roofers who are professionals and they aren't running the job as the guy has the 'undocumented persons' running the job and the regulars are pissed.I figure he has the Mexican dudes doing it at a bargain basement rate.One guy dice el inglés bien.
The regulars have punched holes in their work and caused all kinds of happy happy things.

 

[North by Northwest]

DD,

I buried PC with all the Americans that have been murdered by illegal aliens.

I speak for myself and all the dead murdered Americans who can't.

 

[delldude]

DD,

I buried PC with all the Americans that have been murdered by illegal aliens.

I speak for myself and all the dead murdered Americans who can't.

I have to agree with your stance......the stat's speak for themselves on this.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Thus, in the eyes of US Federal law, they are termed an "illegal alien". Change the law and I will acquiesce and refer to them as illegal "immigrants".

You can call them illegal aliens all you want; as I mentioned to you earlier, there is nothing wrong with that term. I just do not understand why you get your panties in a bunch when someone uses the term "illegal immigrant." I do not need to waste time on Wikipedia; it is as simple as looking up what you cite. Again, the last changes to that law, including what you cited, 8 U.S.C. 1325, is part of the illegal immigration reform and immigration responsibility act. So... THEY DID CHANGE THE LAW AND THE NAME OF THE LAW CALLS IT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! Acquiesce at your own will; just don't jump on someone else for using the term when it is proper to use "illegal immigrant".

As more example, the House of Representatives also uses the term "Illegal Immigration." In 2005, they voted yes to the Border Protection, Anti-terrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act.

The White House also uses the term. The Executive office of the President has issued many statements over the years using the term "illegal immigrants." For example, they said this in a written statement: "The Administration is committed to securing the border to prevent illegal crossings, improving our ability to apprehend illegal immigrants."

But if that isn't enough to clue you into the fact that that is an acceptable term, the United States Supreme Court also uses the term. (See Muehler v. Mena for an example).

But even if that is not enough, the INS often use the two terms interchangeably. And if that is not enough, the Homeland Security Department also uses the term "illegal immigration." Why do you make such a distinction that it makes you jump on someone for calling them illegal immigrants???

 

[MMB]

... I just do not understand why you get your panties in a bunch when someone uses the term "illegal immigrant."

Maybe it is because so many people use the term in an effort to give them some kind of legitimate status. I have heard it too many times linked with lame attempts justify them being here.
“… after all, we are a nation of immigrants.â€
“… and they fill the jobs US citizens don’t want or won’t do.â€

As to the government using the phrase; they are the ones trying to pass another amnesty bill. Of course they are going to sugar coat everything and everyone involved to try to make it more palatable.

They are a blight on our society:
They ignore our laws.
They clog up our medical system.
Both directly and indirectly, they are a huge drain on all our welfare programs.
In union with unscrupulous employers, they displace our own citizens in the labor market.
They cost our education system billions. Money that should be going to bettering education for our kids is going to remedial and bilingual programs for these invaders.
Etc. etc. etc.

There is not one U.S. citizen who is not negatively affected by this invasion in some way.
They bypass the health check system and bring in life threatening diseases.
In many areas, they have formed violent gangs.
If you haven’t been affected directly, you are paying higher taxes to pay for the financial drain the physical problems have caused.

In our industry:
How many rampies and cleaners speak only Spanish?
A LOT!
The last time I went to get my ramp access renewed, there was someone ahead of me that could not speak any English. The interpreter he brought along barely spoke English.
Walk onto a plane while it is being cleaned and TRY to find someone who speaks English. The ones who do won’t admit it!
An airport ramp is a dangerous place. How many people do you want working there who can’t warn others of a dangerous situation? How many do you want to see injured or killed because they didn’t understand when you hollered STOP!?

Still the P.C. crowd pushes the term IMMIGRANT on us, because the term alien might offend someone.
I’ll tell you one person who finds all this very offensive; my sister-in-law. Ana Marie Roybal, a first generation LEGITIMATE immigrant from Mexico. She has a lot to say about this invasion that could not be posted on this forum. Among the things that can; that illegal aliens give her and all Mexicans a bad name, and that addressing them with the term immigrant is an affront to her and to all true immigrants. She's right.

 

[North by Northwest]

Las Lilo,

If I wore painties, their form, as they relate to my body is none of your bees wax. Worry about your own.

Yours, and those like you, LOVE the word association of "immigrant" to illegal immigrant. It allows you to give the appearance of Americans being anti immigrant when in fact Americans are referring to illegal ALIENS as stated in Federal law (the one you have difficulty in grasping).

Most native born Americans, AND real immigrants know exactly what the play on words means. It is those that have an embracing agenda of illegal aliens that attempt to associated them with immigrants. I wouldn't demean the law abiding American immigrant with the criminal illegal alien by calling law breakers "immigrants".

Now spend the day on some more law research and I'll have another lesson for you. (Immigration is referred to as the Federal jurisdiction such as the INS, of which, the control of illegal aliens falls under. As stated previously, illegal aliens fall under immigration, that does not make them immigrants, that makes them criminals FIRST and FOREMOST) Clearly, it is YOU that have the problem with calling them what they are under the eyes of Federal law. Your quote by the White House is the biggest joke of all. Coming from the branch with the biggest illegal alien agenda in history...proves my point.

Vernon Briggs, a Cornell University labor economics professor stated:

"The toleration of illegal immigration undermines all of our labor; it rips at the social fabric. It's a race to the bottom. The one who plays by the rules is penalized... a guest worker program guarantees wages will never go up, and there is no way American citizens can compete with guest workers."

An amnesty for illegal aliens forgives their act of illegal immigration and implicitly forgives other related illegal acts such as driving and working using false documents. The result of an amnesty is that large numbers of foreigners who illegally gained entry into the United States are rewarded with legal status for their breaking the law. In January, 2004 President Bush Proposed an earned legalization program for illegal aliens. This is an amnesty under another
name.

For over 200 years, the United states only granted amnesty in individual cases and had never given amnesty to large numbers of illegal aliens. Then in 1986, Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) which gave amnesty to all illegal aliens who had evaded law enforcement for at least four years or who were working illegally in agriculture. This resulted in 2.8 million illegal aliens being admitted as legal immigrants to the United States.

Because of chain migration, those granted amnesty have brought in an additional 142,000 dependents - relatives brought in to the United States to join their family members.

The amnesty of 1986 was supposed to be a "one time only" amnesty. Yet since 1986, Congress passed a total of 7 amnesties for illegal aliens.

 

[North by Northwest]

Yeah, I think most people on this board feel the same way as you. Is that based off of anecdotal evidence in your community? I am not knocking anecdotal evidence... just curious as to the reasoning.

In Chicago and California I have seen mixed anecdotal evidence.

You have seen "MIXED" anecdotal evidence in California? I don't know what mythical California you are referring to, but I can tell you FIRST hand the destruction, CRIME, imported poverty, Third world Disease that illegal aliens have reaked upon California. Did I leave out the fact that the public school system has been completely DESTROYED by having to spend BILLIONS for educating Mexico and Central America's Children..INCLUDING the anchor babies?

criminal gangs, Mara Salvatrucha, MS-13 to name a few. The MS-13 being considered the MOST violent in America by the FBI.

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English.

3.9 million speak Spanish. (There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ].

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

I can clearly detect your attachment (sympathy and language) to illegal aliens, is it via family or personal experience?

 

[Veritas]

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English.

3.9 million speak Spanish. (There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops, but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States ' annual population growth (and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York ) results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION a year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ].

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

I can clearly detect your attachment (sympathy and language) to illegal aliens, is it via family or personal experience?

Doesn't quite pass the Snopes test.