Interesting

[Randy_G]

You know, I find this ridiculous. When the MHP specs came out in the 80's there was only 1 helicopter that met the specs. The EH 101. It was designed to those specs. All other manufacturers, when asked, said that they were not able to meet the design specs at the time, nor in their forseeable future. So how come the 101 doesn't meet the requirements now ?? Maybe those in the civil service are hoping that a certain European company will resubmit their bid, but with some "incentives". <_< (Just joking )

DND has become just another government department when it comes to those in middle and upper management (Lt Cols and up). They have no vision of what they want the Forces to be, and do. They seem to just want to muddle through, and set up for their retirement. Instead of actually trying to make an efficient, and capable force. Those that are on the front line, are doing the best they can, with what training, and equipment they are given.

Cheers

 

[cyclic monkey]

Hi Randy, nice to see you back here again.

Here's the way I see things, though I may be wrong.
Many years ago the Top Brass designed the perfect helicopter and ordered 50 of them, (the EH 101). Jean Chretien (and myself) felt this helicopter contract was TOO fancy and expensive and deserved to be cancelled. (It also had to be cancelled to satisfy an election promise, though that usually isn't much of a guarantee).

A few years later, the same helicopter was equipped to a more reasonable level at a fraction of the cost and purchased for Search and Rescue, (the Cormorant).

Now the people in charge are trying to tell us that the "scaled-down" maritime helicopter option that the Chretien administration has been researching was not really adequate.
I suspect Ottawa is trying to soften us up so that the Martin administration can buy fancier (and more expensive) helicopters than what they have been looking at lately.

Many people are probably correct in guessing it will be an EH 101 that comes up as the winner.
Whether it will be as fancy as the one orginally ordered by the Conservatives many years ago remains to be seen. (Though it may not be as fancy, it will probably be just as expensive by now, especially when adding the Cancellation fee to the price).

This topic is titled "Interesting". It should be "Frustrating"

{CTD for Prime Minister !!!!!}

 

[Randy_G]

You're mighty right about this being frustrating !! :down: Had the order been left (the money had already been allocated and wasn't new money anyways) I believe almost all of the Sea Kings would have been phased out by now. I just wish that those in upper management would extricate their craniums from their rectums, and support those who're putting themselves in harms way !!

Cheers

 

[Vortex Ring]

Interesting opinions and I've held mine off to see what would come out. I am current on the Sea King and fly out of Shearwater. So rant on but this is NOT an angry rant, it is a rant of desperation for understanding and support.

The current SK cannot be overhauled within reasonable costs due to the demands for radar, weapons systems, secure communications and self defence equipment needs. It would be cost prohibitive to overhaul her to fit all the stuff a new aircraft would need. It has nothing to do with engine, transmission or fancy glass panels for the drivers. As beautiful as cougars S61N was, it cannot hunt and kill subs and ships in mid-atlantic or detect the enemy from 100 miles.

The SK airframe is tough enough for overhaul and would make great log haulers after we get rid of them, our airframes only average 11,000 hours. But constant ship movement while chained in the hangar, deck landings up to 8 feet per second and constant salt air exposure have taken their toll. I know offshore 61s get into salt spray too but usually in transitions to and from a landing. The SK can spend long minutes in the dip getting lots of salt spray and our patrols in the Straights of Hormuz have us in salt spray all the time. We need a new machine.

As for which machine, we (the operators) don't care. We just want a new, more capable, more reliable and usable weapon platform.

Too friggin expensive of a contract your say? You are all entitled to your opinions of course as we are all tax payers. (I pay taxes too. Contrary to what some believe, our food, housing etc.... is not free, and I pay plenty of taxes off my salary just like you). Just remember this, your right to express your opinion while you safely sit in your living rooms with your children playing safely at your feet come at a great price while we fly our 43 year old Sea Kings off the back of a pitching frigate at night in the middle of the Persian Gulf. I too want more responsible government, I want Canadian tax dollars spent on worthwhile causes and concerns but our troops deserve the support of Canadians. It's not our fault (front line pilots) that the cancelled contract would have bought new machines years ago and that we have now spent more on the delays than what the original contract would have cost. Here is some food for thought:

It is the soldier, not the journalist, who guarantees freedom of speech;

It is the soldier, not the politician, who guarantees our democracy;

It is the soldier, not the diplomat, that becomes the tangible expression of our nation's beliefs and extends its values and its ideals worldwide;

And it is the soldier, whose flag-draped coffin vividly demonstrates the ultimate cost of representing our beliefs in difficult and dangerous places.

Whatever helicopters they buy, they just need to buy them soon before I bury another friend or leave only my widow to read your comments.

There, now rants off. True North and Free.

 

[Over-Talk]

Vortex, well said. But I don't think you need to say all this to other pilots.
We have great respect for the skills you guys have, and the conditions you work under.

Like you, we think you guys should have new helicopters. Actually, you should have had them several years ago!!

We don't like to see our tax dollars wasted anymore than you do.
That's why we find all this to be so interesting/frustrating.
You guys probably just see it as heartbreaking.

Hopefully they buy something good for you, and give you what's necessary to maintain them in brand-new condition.

Rant if you need to vent, brother. We're with you.

 

[Blackmac]

Vortex, the helicopter was cancelled when Cretin came in was strictly politics. The airframe of the helicopter has not changed only what you put inside. One of your Generals who was involved in the specs on the aircraft, quit as soon as the RFP was on the street and became a VP at one of the sub-equipment suppliers. No conflict of interest there, I wonder how the company he went to work for knew all the specs. As the cold war had come to an end the requirement for all the electronics that was to be put on board was no longer required.

Actually the cancellation of the contract had nothing to do with the airframe, it was the cost of the electronic that were no longer required.

If somebody with gonads at DND had reduced the requiremnt to a reasonable level and stood by the requirement, it might have been a different story.

The ADM in charge of purchasing at DND actually needs a brain transplant, which I recommended he get when I worked for him at the department he was at prior to DND.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, there is nobody at NDHQ that has any gonads, including the females. They are all politicians and only concerned with there own self interest, but I guess I'm not telling you anything you are not already aware of.

It should be a requirement that every Defence Minister be required to ride in every piece of mobile equipment that department operates.

This rant good go on for quite awhile, I honestly think all you guys should quit, for lack of support.

IMHO, Don

 

[tDawe]

If it was a similar civilian outfit flying 43 year old birds TC would be all over them whenever they smelled bad, let alone the long string of tragedies like those that have occurred. And assuming TC hadn’t already shut them down surely every man and woman right down to the broom pushers would have seen something wrong with the picture when no new birds were in sight, and moved on.

There is a couple of threads on here that hint (some more obvious then others) at how some companies have poor management, which in turn leads to lower moral. It appears that things are, sadly, parallel, even for our armed forces. Politicians feel the need to screw our flyers in the short term, so they can look good and secure retirement pensions, but in 20 years there going to be wandering around their local riding on Nov. 11, giving speeches about how we should all thank a vet. How ironic, in a sickening way

 

[Bullet Remington]

VR:

Three words for you, SIR!

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

If I were still wearing a uniform, I'd salute ya. Not because of I particularly like Officers, especially drivers that whack the crap out my cabs, but because it's most refreshing and confirming to FINALLY, hear someone still wearing brass have the gonads to speak the truth, while they are still on the pay roll.

Blackmac:

You are as well correct. Unfortunately, your stance is most common from RETIRED brass shoulders. I've always wondered about the people that wait until they retired to speak the truth concerning the "real time" situation in the military. Made and still makes me wonder about the "respect' thing for people that put their careers ahead of the the well being of their subordiates. I guess the next promotion is more important that lives.

Man, oh man. What a sorry excuse for a country, leadership, and ignity we as a nation are!

NO PERSONAL INSULT INTENDED.

BR, CD, Rt. (m.o.p W hANDLE.)

 

[helicopper]

the TRUTH is hardly what i'd label a "rant", VR... good words.

our military personnel have LONG AGO earned the right to be equipped with the BEST tools of the trade... it's as simple as that!

cheers...

ps... we're busy workin' on maj gen (ret) lew mackenzie here in muskoka to jump into the next fray... wouldn't HE make a great minister of dnd!!

 

[Vortex Ring]

I can't thank you guys enough for your support. When I post something like this I am always afraid I'll come across as some sanctimonious and pompous *ss telling you guys how to suck eggs. Those of you who know me know I'd never do that because I have the utmost respect for my commercial friends and what you do for a living, the price you pay to get where you are and how different from my "government paycheck" your lives are.

Having said that, too many times I have commercial operators look at me funny when I try to explain that we might need an aircraft that costs so much. You cannot compare a cargo hauling life-support-system for a cargo hook like the logging S61N to my old Sea King. They came from the same mother but we will need a beast with incredible electronic guts to do our job. Now I'm just guessing but the cost of our machine will be about 35% for the airframe and the rest of the cost will be for all the mission equipment we need and I'm not talking about the Breeze Eastern hoist either.

Our tax dollars unfortunately have been mired in patronage appointments and bizarre timings of job switches by generals from uniform to boardroom. Why would anyone think we replaced three airframes with the B412? That General went right from NDHQ to the Bell Helicopters boardroom, qu'elle surprise. What we really need is a Minister of Defence who has spent time in uniform (keep at it in Muskoka) and some common sense injected from industry for our maintenance programs, oh my God did I say that out loud.

Civilian AMEs amaze me. Not that I don't respect my techs, they are created by us in our own restrictive system. But how two guys can change an engine overnight in a helo at CXXX airfield is great compared to 5 or 8 days at a military base with 4 to 6 guys crawling all over the beast 10 hours a day?????? Or why my Sea King sits in the hangar waiting 9 weeks for an interconnect for the fuel tanks when Canadian has that same part in their stores at their hangar just up the road from me. That amazes me. I love what I do and I am proud to serve but there is a lot we could learn from commercial operators and there are some things we could share such as our NVG experience etc....That is why I am also a believer in more and better use of Reserves and our involvement in a professional association.

Thanks again for your support boys. Now that I am getting to know more of you guys I promise to try and drop in for a coffee or greeting next time I fly buy your bases. Man would I love to chat with some of you guys.......

 

[CTD]

You speak the truth, and see through the bullshite. Don't be surprised when other good people agree with you.

I'm certain you'd be welcome at any of these bases, as well as a certain scotch bar in the capital... B)

 

[Vortex Ring]

Thanks CTD, I'll try and remember that. I did draft that response while sipping a 12 year old Glenlivet

 

[cyclic monkey]

I recently expressed my vote for CTD to be Prime Minister in the hope that he will kick Ottawa into shape.......
I must add....."Vortex Ring for Minister of Defence"

There should also be a portfolio for Mr Glen Livet. He sounds like he is creating a lot of good thinking lately.

 

[RDM]

They are all politicians and only concerned with there own self interest

Pretty much the whole government.
TC is just as bad, once moved into the management (EX) group they certainly forget from where they came. :down:

wait now this could be a whole new thread :blink:

 

[CTD]

Could it ever, and I'd have to get a new user name... :rant: