Judge: Dal Pilots Overcompensated!

Dizel8

Senior
Sep 9, 2002
498
0
Delta Reports Wider $1.13 Billion Loss
Friday November 11, 6:14 am ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer
Delta Reports $1.13 Billion Loss, Says Pilot Concession Proposal Not Enough

ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines Inc., which is operating under bankruptcy court protection, blamed high fuel costs Thursday as it reported a wider third-quarter loss of $1.13 billion and said it is concerned it continues to use borrowed money to fund its red ink.

The nation's third-largest carrier also said its pilots are wrong in their contention that nearly $91 million in concessions they are offering is enough to help the struggling carrier return to profitability and compete with discount rivals.

The quarterly results, announced after the market closed, missed Wall Street expectations and came despite a solid gain in revenue.

Delta's loss for the three months ending Sept. 30 compared to a loss of $651 million for the same period a year ago. The latest loss includes $4 million in dividends paid out to preferred shareholders.

Excluding one-time reorganization and other special items, Delta said it lost $438 million in the July-September period.

Analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial were expecting a loss of $412.5 million, or $3 a share, in the third quarter.

Delta's earnings release and accompanying financial tables did not include per share figures. A spokeswoman said the company believed using the per share figures was inappropriate because Delta is in bankruptcy. The existing stock likely will become worthless when the company emerges from Chapter 11.

Revenue in the quarter rose 8.9 percent to $4.22 billion, compared to $3.87 billion recorded in the same period a year ago.

The third-quarter loss brings Delta's red ink to just over $11 billion since January 2001. The airline filed for Chapter 11 protection on Sept. 14 in New York.

"While we are pleased with the level of post-petition financing we were able to obtain, we must stop using borrowed money to fund our losses," said Edward Bastian, Delta's chief financial officer.

Delta's comments about its pilots came a day after the pilots union disclosed in a bankruptcy court filing what it is offering the company in concessions. But Delta wants $325 million in concessions from its 6,000 pilots and is asking the bankruptcy court to reject the pilot contract to allow Delta to impose the cuts unilaterally.

A showdown in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York looms, with a hearing set for Nov. 16 to discuss the company's motion to reject the pilot contract.

In court papers filed Wednesday night, the Air Line Pilots Association said the $90.7 million average annual concessions over four years it has offered Delta is sufficient to help the Atlanta-based company meet its stated goal of reducing its pilot costs per available seat mile.

But company spokesman John Kennedy said Thursday that the union's analysis is flawed.

"Therefore, its conclusions are erroneous," Kennedy said.

Kennedy said Delta management is open to negotiating with the union, but he stressed that the targeted cuts the company is seeking are essential.

"Our financial situation is urgent and the $325 million need for concessions from the pilots is real," he said.

The cuts would be on top of $1 billion in annual concessions the pilots agreed to in a five-year deal reached in 2004.

The union said that if Delta rejects the pilot contract, that would give pilots the right to strike, and the union warned a walkout would devastate Delta.

Kennedy declined to speculate on the possibility of a strike.

A union spokesman did not immediately return a call Thursday seeking a response to Delta's comments.

Delta has said it believes it will return to profitability two years from now if, among other things, it can get the pilot concessions it is seeking and jet fuel doesn't get more costly.

At a court hearing Thursday, bankruptcy judge Prudence Carter Beatty allowed Delta to abandon leases on nine Boeing 737s and sell a dozen Boeing 767s. The nine 737s were leased to Delta by Pembroke Capital Aircraft (Shannon) Ltd., which leases two of those planes from C.I.T. Leasing Corp.

So far, Delta has gotten permission to reject leases of about 50 aircraft, bringing it closer to its goal of eliminating 80 planes from its fleet by 2006 and reducing domestic flights by 15-20 percent.

The carrier has said it plans to increase international flights to make more profits. At Thursday's hearing, Beatty questioned if that plan will work, and furthermore, if putting resources into more international flights will "sit well" with workers staring down pay cuts.

Still, Beatty suggested that Delta's pilots are overcompensated, saying, "What's really weird is that anyone agreed to pay them that much money to begin with."In its earnings release, Delta said it ended the quarter with only $1.4 billion in unrestricted cash.

For the first nine months of the year, Delta said it lost $2.60 billion, compared to a loss of $3.01 billion for the same period a year ago. The latest nine-month loss includes $15 million in dividends paid out to preferred shareholders. Nine-month revenue was $12.05 billion, compared to $11.36 billion recorded a year ago.

AP Business Writer Madlen Read contributed to this report from New York.
 
Of course. Just look at the Delta Academy they promote. Get into an airliner after just 700 hours! Obviously it doesn't take a rocket scientist anymore to fly jets.
With all the flight software out there newbie pilots can practice at home.
Delta pilots deserve what they get, after all they allowed the junior jets on property.
 
Obviously it doesn't take a rocket scientist anymore to fly jets.
With all the flight software out there newbie pilots can practice at home.

Yeah but often times, those computers don't work well. With cutbacks in maintenance, and competent mechanics leaving their professions for better pay and work conditions in other fields, they are likely to not work well for long periods of time which means that the PILOT has to fly the aircraft and be prepared for an incorrect repair. I don't know about you, but in bad weather, the pilot I'm sitting behind is worth every red cent.
 
Unfortunately, perception is what counts.

Well, they say there are no athiests in a foxhole. I believe every passengers' perception is in alignment during a CAT III approach.

Good or bad, I don't think Delta will have any trouble getting what they want. I believe most pilots will agree to it because there will be better times ahead if they can just hang on.

Plus, with Delta being one of the largest employers in Georgia, I don't think the pilots can handle a community spotlight on what may be perceived as self preservation or greed. Down there, everyone knows someone who works for Delta. It would be hard to dodge the rotten tomatoes if you were identified as part of the group that caused an airline to liquidate.
 
Still, Beatty suggested that Delta's pilots are overcompensated, saying, "What's really weird is that anyone agreed to pay them that much money to begin with."


And the CEO and board of directors are not.
You have to love these judges and how they feel about union workers.
We are allways over compensated.
Lets see how over compensated we all are when Beatty crash lands on his next flight, :shock:

These judges should start to realize it was the management of these airlines that put us in this position
Looks to me they are the ones that are overcompensated. :eek:

SHUT EM DOWN :up:
 
SHUT EM DOWN :up:

There usually is plenty of blame to spread around. You better be willing to walk the talk and if so, you better find that outdated, dusty resume now and brush up on your interview skills because you are beginning to sound like AMFA, IAM and AFA. Nobody thought Eastern would ever be forced in Chapter 7 either. Best of luck from someone that's been there and back. The BK process ain't pretty and...it isn't fair.

However, I do question some of the provocative statements that the judge has offered up. Whether in jest or not, they are still inappropriate, IMHO. It's probably easy for her to pop off and joke around when her life isn't being potentially altered in such a substantive way!
 
And the CEO and board of directors are not.
You have to love these judges and how they feel about union workers.
We are allways over compensated.
Lets see how over compensated we all are when Beatty crash lands on his next flight, :shock:

These judges should start to realize it was the management of these airlines that put us in this position
Looks to me they are the ones that are overcompensated. :eek:

SHUT EM DOWN :up:

I would say that the few execs' combined pay vs. HOW MANY pilots? Yes...the execs could use a cut, too, and they are already taking one. But even if it isn't enough, that hardly contributes to the expense line item as much as exponentially more pilots.

Shut yourself down and leave. Probably would make some of the folks sitting in the seat next to you alot happier.

And yes...you sure do need to make 169k to not crash land a plane! Tell that to the firefighters and police men/women that SAVE LIVES every day for a fraction of your "just in case" threat.
 
There usually is plenty of blame to spread around. You better be willing to walk the talk and if so, you better find that outdated, dusty resume now and brush up on your interview skills because you are beginning to sound like AMFA, IAM and AFA. Nobody thought Eastern would ever be forced in Chapter 7 either. Best of luck from someone that's been there and back. The BK process ain't pretty and...it isn't fair.

However, I do question some of the provocative statements that the judge has offered up. Whether in jest or not, they are still inappropriate, IMHO. It's probably easy for her to pop off and joke around when her life isn't being potentially altered in such a substantive way!

Walk the talk. :lol: This is my last stop no need to stay in the industry after this ship sinks.

It is ironic how I never got hired on with DAL after PAA went under. Now I am glad to be here at AA. Although things dont look much better :D

No need to find any outdated resume or brush up on any interview skills. It comes down to who you know. ;)

If we take any more pay cuts imposed on us by some judge you might as well walk because the benefits and pay will be comparable to home depot :eek:

In my honest opinion the judge can kiss my arse
if any one is overcompensated it is the federal employee
especially the judges who were once lawyers :p
 
The difference is the judge's employer is not bankrupt. Delta pilots' employer is and has a considerable amount of power under bankruptcy laws. Ultimately, the judge has no choice but to grant DL's request if a mutual agreement is not reached. DL's request is well within what is allowed under bankruptcy laws, although the judge sure doesn't want to be the one to impose it; she has alot more fun cajoling each party every time they come before her. Check out the WSJ article about her if you want an idea of the loose cannon that both DL and DALPA have to deal with.
 
Just curious. If the pilots on average make $169,000 and have already given a BILLION in concessions how much did they make previously? I've heard rumors of lump sum pensions of over $1,000,000? Someting seems out of whack, but I'll not sit in judgement. Seems most folks could get by on any six figure salary and you won't get that at Home Depot unless you manage the entire operation.Savy
 
Just curious. If the pilots on average make $169,000 and have already given a BILLION in concessions how much did they make previously? I've heard rumors of lump sum pensions of over $1,000,000? Someting seems out of whack, but I'll not sit in judgement. Seems most folks could get by on any six figure salary and you won't get that at Home Depot unless you manage the entire operation.Savy

I would like to know how this 169,000 came to be. While captains can earn that much, the vast majority of DL pilots make less than the quoted average. I have a feeling DL has weighted all captain overtime pay (green slips) to reach such an "average". The most senior 12 year copilot on the 777 would make around 120k/yr. Most FO's make significantly less. Roughly 30% of DL pilots have less than 10 years seniority. A 7 year FO would earn around 85k/yr before the cut and roughly 69k a year with the proposed cut.
 
Well, they say there are no athiests in a foxhole. I believe every passengers' perception is in alignment during a CAT III approach.

As the saying goes, "pilots earn their pay in chunks."

When everything is going well, they're highly overcompensated. When it goes down hill, they earn every penny and then some.

There are over 100 people who to this day believe Al Haynes was underpaid.
 
Just curious. If the pilots on average make $169,000 and have already given a BILLION in concessions how much did they make previously? I've heard rumors of lump sum pensions of over $1,000,000? Someting seems out of whack, but I'll not sit in judgement. Seems most folks could get by on any six figure salary and you won't get that at Home Depot unless you manage the entire operation.Savy


Wow!!!! A whole entire ONE MILLION DOLLAR retirement lump sum? I'm offended. how could that be? :shock: For reference, you can retire from the armed forces at age 48 as an ENLISTED with man and have a pension worth more than a $1,000,000 lump sum (3% per year inflation, discounted at 5% per year). You can retire at 52 as an O-6 and have a retirement worth twice as much. Yet somehow you think getting a lump sum after 40 years of flying equal to $1,000,000 is excessive. Apparently, your investments of late havent been quite to "Savy"........ :rolleyes:

I would like to know how this 169,000 came to be. While captains can earn that much, the vast majority of DL pilots make less than the quoted average. I have a feeling DL has weighted all captain overtime pay (green slips) to reach such an "average". The most senior 12 year copilot on the 777 would make around 120k/yr. Most FO's make significantly less. Roughly 30% of DL pilots have less than 10 years seniority. A 7 year FO would earn around 85k/yr before the cut and roughly 69k a year with the proposed cut.


In these situations, the company usually doesn't count w-2 wages only. They count benefits and payroll taxes. So what they get is a number just north of 100K and all the "extra's" drive it north.

To piggyback on your post, the "average" 7 year F/O who makes 70K a year is over 40 Years old, and has been flying for over 15 years. He has at least a Bach degree with a 'masters' in flying (if you don't think military pilot training is equiv to a masters program, then you haven't been through military flight training). Many have other Masters. He has over 5000 hours. He fought HARD to get to DAL. It was the second most desirable Airline to fly for (UAL was of course first.... ;) :p )). DAL got some of the best aviators out there. He is a professional. Show me another industry where this is the punk wages they give someone with an equal level of reponsibility and education who has risen to the top of his profession.
 
Actually $1,000,000 was a significant "low ball" estimate. Also, "too'Savy" is more like it. Anyway, as I said I do not sit in judgement nor do I believe I'll see any pilots in the bread line. I'll not go into the advantages of lump sum pension payments , but getting your money up front has many. Savy