Labor Plays Managements Game

[luvn737s]

All of the airlines "know" that the industry must reduce capacity to regain control over fares. Yet no one wants to be the sacrificial lamb.

All of airline labor knows that only a strike and shutdown will allow labor to regain relevance and strength. Yet the concessions continue, only to be used by management to further bludgeon labor and waste the savings by offering lower fares.

It seems that there are all the ingredients for a major train wreck between these two parties, yet it never comes.

Why?

 

[delldude]

It seems that there are all the ingredients for a major train wreck between these two parties, yet it never comes.

Why?

[post="274953"][/post]​

because the good people at us airways have set the precedent for all industry wide... :down: :down:

 

[nostradamus]

because the good people at us airways have set the precedent for all industry wide..


Did you ever offer to help a Usairways employee. A while back when NWA threatend BK, your unions were tripping over eachother giving things back. When airline employees do not stick together, this is what happens.

Let just say that NWA and USairways are hardware stores on the same block. I at USairways will cut my costs as much as possible to run you out of business, then I will buy your hardware store and the house you live in, if your spouse wants to come with me I will take them too.

Telling another airline employee to give up their livelyhood so your but gets fatter, without offering help, well that that kind of thinking that is dragging this industry down. You'll see me at your forclosure.

 

[delldude]

quote=nostradamus,Jun 3 2005, 06:20 AM]

because the good people at us airways have set the precedent for all industry wide..
Did you ever offer to help a Usairways employee. A while back when NWA threatend BK, your unions were tripping over eachother giving things back. When airline employees do not stick together, this is what happens.

Let just say that NWA and USairways are hardware stores on the same block. I at USairways will cut my costs as much as possible to run you out of business, then I will buy your hardware store and the house you live in, if your spouse wants to come with me I will take them too.

Telling another airline employee to give up their livelyhood so your but gets fatter, without offering help, well that that kind of thinking that is dragging this industry down. You'll see me at your forclosure.

[post="275049"][/post]​

no i believe your thinking is the root of the problem.my union forefathers came to a point where it was time to say enough is enough....and they sacrificed all else and took a stand.yes it cost many alot but they drew a line and that was it.today we as an industry have shown management that we will continually capitulate while they keep awarding themselves for poor performance and failure on yours and my backs.
when i started to pursue a career as a mech i really looked forward to the benefits,wages and pension....now whats there to be proud of?
dimed down industry with wages bordering the teens??
all the material i had to learn and continue to use daily to keep tragedy from the 6 o'clock news......for $20 and hour give or take?? i don't know about you dude but i'm worth in the $40 range and so is the job.......
so thanks to people with your mind set we as an industry will be working for k-mart wages as some already are..
Did you ever offer to help a Usairways employee.i am one buddy and yes in my capacity and my taking time to get involved as a union representitive i have on many occasion.
guess you're one them outhouse activists,huh?
TRADE UNIONIST😱ne who puts others before himself....

 

[Red Tail Bear]

All of the airlines "know" that the industry must reduce capacity to regain control over fares. Yet no one wants to be the sacrificial lamb.

All of airline labor knows that only a strike and shutdown will allow labor to regain relevance and strength. Yet the concessions continue, only to be used by management to further bludgeon labor and waste the savings by offering lower fares.

It seems that there are all the ingredients for a major train wreck between these two parties, yet it never comes.

Why?

[post="274953"][/post]​

Because all of the airlines that already had the chance to shut em down chose to take it in the seat rather than walk the street. And some chose to take it 2and 3 times. Don't look for NWA to be the sacrificial lamb. In this game its the survival of the fittest and right now thats WN,AA,and NW.

 

[delldude]

Because all of the airlines that already had the chance to shut em down chose to take it in the seat rather than walk the street. And some chose to take it 2and 3 times. Don't look for NWA to be the sacrificial lamb. In this game its the survival of the fittest and right now thats WN,AA,and NW.

[post="275088"][/post]​

well then i hope you guys do what should have been done already...my hats off then.

 

[nostradamus]

Northwest (NWAC: news, chart, profile) paced advancers after Merrill Lynch lifted the stock to buy from neutral, due primarily to relative valuation. While analyst Michael Linenberg said he doesn't think bankruptcy is likely, he believes the threat of one may help the company get another $800 million in labor concessions versus its $1.1 billion savings target.


Show us how its done Big boy. Do not stand for this, go out and strike so the rest of us can have a better life. Walk the walk, we heard the talk. I will be watching.

 

[UAL_TECH]

quote=nostradamus,Jun 3 2005, 06:20 AM]

because the good people at us airways have set the precedent for all industry wide..
Did you ever offer to help a Usairways employee. A while back when NWA threatend BK, your unions were tripping over eachother giving things back. When airline employees do not stick together, this is what happens.

Let just say that NWA and USairways are hardware stores on the same block. I at USairways will cut my costs as much as possible to run you out of business, then I will buy your hardware store and the house you live in, if your spouse wants to come with me I will take them too.

Telling another airline employee to give up their livelyhood so your but gets fatter, without offering help, well that that kind of thinking that is dragging this industry down. You'll see me at your forclosure.

[post="275049"][/post]​

no i believe your thinking is the root of the problem.my union forefathers came to a point where it was time to say enough is enough....and they sacrificed all else and took a stand.yes it cost many alot but they drew a line and that was it.today we as an industry have shown management that we will continually capitulate while they keep awarding themselves for poor performance and failure on yours and my backs.
when i started to pursue a career as a mech i really looked forward to the benefits,wages and pension....now whats there to be proud of?
dimed down industry with wages bordering the teens??
all the material i had to learn and continue to use daily to keep tragedy from the 6 o'clock news......for $20 and hour give or take?? i don't know about you dude but i'm worth in the $40 range and so is the job.......
so thanks to people with your mind set we as an industry will be working for k-mart wages as some already are..
Did you ever offer to help a Usairways employee.i am one buddy and yes in my capacity and my taking time to get involved as a union representitive i have on many occasion.
guess you're one them outhouse activists,huh?
TRADE UNIONIST😱ne who puts others before himself....

[post="275075"][/post]​

DellDude,

In this we are single minded!!!

And to the NWA AMFA M&R I apologize for the 59% that did not have the tenacity to do the right thing. I have ‘NO’ doubt that our actions have put further pressure on you all. Evidently, I have failed in my duty to effectively convey my reasoning to the membership that I interact with on a daily basis.

As a 41%er, I will continue to voice my discontent on the myopic and self centered actions of my membership.

Take Care,
B) UAL_TECH

 

[luvn737s]

Because all of the airlines that already had the chance to shut em down chose to take it in the seat rather than walk the street. And some chose to take it 2and 3 times. Don't look for NWA to be the sacrificial lamb. In this game its the survival of the fittest and right now thats WN,AA,and NW.

[post="275088"][/post]​

So what's the prize for survival? An industry that can't generate a descent profit or a lousy career? Or both.

 

[Bigsky]

You will see NWA soon making a profit without making the huge sacrifices by labor groups as other have in compensation and work rules. Why? Because we have a business plan that goes beyond screwing over our employees. Although if I am a card carrying member of AMFA or a furloughed pilot I might call bull####. NWA has done a supurb job of conquering the heartland and maintaining a strong presence in Asia. As Busdrvr has mentioned, NWA has dominated their hubs and has less LCC competition than any other legacy carrier. This gives them some pricing power and the abililty to rise above the rest. Sacrificial Lamb? So sorry, you have wrong number!!!! Still have to see how the AMFA deal works out. Good luck to al the mechs.

cheers

bigsky

 

[jimntx]

So what's the prize for survival? An industry that can't generate a descent profit or a lousy career? Or both.

[post="275457"][/post]​

It's this kind of thinking--encouraged by management--that there are only two options, decent wages or decent profits. One would think that the example of WN would have cut off debate on this bogus issue a long time ago.

No one ever seems to consider that the real argument is doing something about management waste and imcompetence, holding on to outmoded ways of doing things, thinking that because labor is (or used to be before the spike in oil prices) the largest single cost at an airline that that must be the problem.

There have been several good articles in the media recently about the loss of the art of persuasion in this country. In politics, labor relations, religion, you name it...No one is willing to concede that they are anything other than the sole possessor of revealed truth.

Furthermore, a "revealed truth" in religion is used to propagate a "revealed truth" in politics--as in, you can not be Christian or an American patriot and vote against confirmation of a right-wing loony judge. The other side of that coin is a belief that abortion is wrong automatically disqualifies anyone from serving in the judiciary, regardless of whether the judge has demonstrated over and over again the ability to separate his/her personal beliefs and interpretation of the law.

A "revealed truth" in politics propagates a "revealed truth" in labor relations--as in, "what's good for business is good for America" becomes unions are intrinsically evil because the Communists thought that unions were good. The other side of that coin is that ALL management people are, by definition, thieves.

Thus the stalemate in finding solutions to the financial crisis in the airline industry.

Now, back to the topic at hand...

If anyone wants a perfect example of a union standing together and (eventually) winning, one need not look further than the flight attendants at TWA who stayed out on strike for 3 years. They walked the picket lines, they took care of each other, and after the strike was over they accepted as co-workers the people who had been hired in their place. It's called acting like adults and moving on with one's life.

 

[luvn737s]

You almost rode the credibility horse to the finish line; up to the "right-wing loony judge" comment.

Why has this left-wing/right-wing tribal mentality been allowed to rip our country apart? Wasn't this war fought 140 years ago? Not enough dead? CSPAN more exciting than ESPN?

 

[mrman]

So what's the prize for survival? An industry that can't generate a descent profit or a lousy career? Or both.

[post="275457"][/post]​

So of this is supply and demand. As long as there are people in line wanting those jobs at a lower pay rate the wages will go down. Plenty of unemployed pilots, mech, FA. Flight Attendants may be in the hardest spot as they are unskilled labor. A FA 'career' is really going to end up being a steping stone or short time career. This is just the nature of the job. As long as the qualification is a 6 week class they can be replaced easily just as other low skilled labor.

 

[aafsc]

So of this is supply and demand. As long as there are people in line wanting those jobs at a lower pay rate the wages will go down. Plenty of unemployed pilots, mech, FA. Flight Attendants may be in the hardest spot as they are unskilled labor. A FA 'career' is really going to end up being a steping stone or short time career. This is just the nature of the job. As long as the qualification is a 6 week class they can be replaced easily just as other low skilled labor.

[post="275857"][/post]​

True, but at what cost? They can more easily replace the AMTs because a large portion of them are already gone and their jobs are currently being performed by third party. All they have to do is replace the relatively few that are left. If they tried to replace the ramp, agents, or F/As, they could do it but it would be very difficult, very expensive, and very time consuming because these groups can shut it down immediately. When I got laid off and had to report to MIA, it took 2 weeks to get my badge with the drivers training and customs seal. And I have been at AA for 15 years. Imagine how long it would take with people who never worked at an airport before. You have to do the fingerprints, background checks, etc. This is assuming you can find people willing to work in the elements for next to nothing and they can pass background and drug test.
Then they have to go through government mandated dangerous goods and hazardous materials training. You have to be somewhat literate to pass these courses. Then they have to go through class to learn the job. Then there is actual on the job training. When we had new hires at AA, they were clueless when they first came on the ramp. NW could replace these groups, but would/could they go 6 months with rampant delays, aircraft damage, and a very high rate of mishandled bags? Would they risk liquidation just to get rid of the employees?