Legal Challenge

[VERTICAL REF]

If you operate with the wrong size pear ring or clevis - use a worn LL with a poor electrical cable and something happens then you will go to jail! And I would say the individual is lacking basic common sense in these area's.

Common sense is very common...you just have to know where to find it!

 

[bag swinnger]

I hope this doesnt end up being one of those topics that anybody wants to admit to actually happenning out there.
every where I go wheather for the operators that I have worked for, or the operators that I have worked around I see the same stuff going on THE OPS GEAR IS CRAP! pear ring sizes the number one least likely component that fits. electrical snags, intermittent hooks, long lines that are unwinding. I as well as others have gone out and purchased some of my own ops gear including my own synthetic longline, if for nothing else peace of mind.
I find it ineresting that the front end office staff are always talking saftey with this sort of stuff but once you get out in the feild or to a remote base you are on your own and are forced to make the decision on wheather to use shody equipment just to get the job done or not.
In just this last week, I have talked to more than one pilot in the vertical referance buissness and I am hearing that, hey the machines are great but the ops gear is garbage!
So maybe there is someone in the know that can answer me this question, as an employee of any canadian helicopter company. Am I liable if any of this stuff from the belly hook on down the line fails?

 

[Over-Talk]

Hi Bagflinger, you don't know who I am, but I do know who you are, and the companies you have worked for.

In reply to your question about liability if something falls off.......I don't know the answer......but I can guess that some employers will stick with you, while others will run-like-hell in the opposite direction.

May I suggest you look up the posts about "Good companies to work for".
Companies don't just make it onto that list because they pay big bucks........they usually have good ops gear, a benefit plan, and treat you respectfully, and expect a good job in return........these things usually go hand-in-hand at the "good" companies.
How do your employers measure up ??? Did they make the list ???

We are in a tough business, a "good" employer makes life alot easier.
Did you really have to buy your own long-line to get a good one???? Holy doo-doo, it might be time for you to exercise your piloting skills by 'pulling a 180 and getting the-hell-outta there'!!
I cannot guarantee you a job at any of the "good" companies, but the sooner you start calling around, the sooner you will start working with the right size pear-rings.

 

[Nomex]

Bagswinger

I know where you are coming from with the ops gear woes. Sometimes you have to take a stand on gear. I have in past destroyed (cut-up) long-lines, slings etc that were still being used but were not safe. They were returned to stores with a request for new stuff which was then sent out. I have found sometimes the people that make the Ops Gear decisions are the stores personnel, who are under pressure to save money and consequently try to make do. When I have said this or that piece of gear is not serviceable and I can't use it, that is the end of the story. If faced with a new job that I arrive at - I check out things as soon as I can and start making phone calls for new gear if necessary.

In answer to your other question, I would think without question you would be liable if you were aware that whatever broke was in poor shape etc. If you checked everything and it was good and serviceable and then it broke, you would at least have a defence (defence because you likely still would be named as a party in a suit). If a company espouses safety etc, but their gear is shoddy, and the pilot uses it, I am sure the company will produce memos that have directed employees to make sure everything is safe, including ops gear and will say that they rely on pilots to ensure their ops gear is adequate or to notify the company.

 

[jetbox]

Cap was talking about some pilots that form a company and then contract themselves out under a company name i.e. Joe's Flying B.C. Ltd..........
This is done for some tax advantages, and also to protect the pilot personally from liability suits i.e. the lawyers could only take what the company owned, and not the pilot's personal property i.e. house, cat, dog and luxury yacht !!

I'm afraid it's not that simple. Getting hired as a contractor instead of as an employee makes it more difficult for people to come after you but it's not impossible.
If you are a director, president, C.E.O. etc of your company and you are directly responsible for someone's injuries, they can come after your "house, cat, dog and luxury yacht" if they can prove that you were negligent in your actions.

Just to give you an example, if you are operating within the "dead man's zone" of the flight manual and the engine quits and one of your passengers is injured, a good lawyer would argue that you weren't able to conduct a succesfull autorotation because you were operating the A/C outside of the safety zone as outlined in the flight manual.

Everybody in this business knows that the dead man's zone is where we have to be 90% of the time but all a jury and lawyers would care about is the fact that you knowingly put yourself and your passenger/s in an unsafe situation, as dictated in black and white in the flight manual.

All I can say is go see a good (expensive) lawyer and get him/her to explain it to you in detail. You might be surprised!!!!!!

 

[Albert Ross]

One thing they will look at is who makes good after a problem. And you're right - the people to cater for are the uneducated people in the courtroom - I believe that was my first article in vertical.

Phil

 

[Blackmac]

HAC was asked and refused to answer.

Why don't operators have sling insurance?????

I beleive most people answered with the shoddy ops gear that alot of opertors have, states the reason why.

Scenario: Five place chopper assigned to a survey camp. Camp is to be relocated fifty miles away. Camp is to be moved by helicopter.

Camp manager decides that with not enough room inside the helicopter, he asks the pilot to carry sling loads, that can handle larger volume.

Pilot drops third load with some expensive survey equipment that gets broken. Survey company has to cancel project because of lack of equipment availability.

Survey company sues the chopper company for all costs, including the original cost of setting up camp, as the project was not completed with any usable data.

What do you think happened, and why??????


Cheers, Don

PS: Any professional company or pilot can answer this.

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Every operator I have ever worked for has sling insurance. And the option is given to the client for "full coverage" insurance if required. (as in the case of moving a doghouse or bird)

Know your company ploicies and coverage...

Again common sense is common - you just have to know where to find it.

 

[Blackmac]

Some of you guys are in for a rude awakening in sling operations.

I worked for some of the largest helicopter companies in Canada and not one had sling insurance.

Most companies only allow X number of dollars per pound for any dropped load as stated in their tarrif.

If your tarrif is not specifically mentioned in the contract and forms part of the contract, you will be responsible for the full value of the load.

The federal government does not accept anybodies tarrif since deregulation and in fact nobody has to accept it.

The only governing factors is the contract between the two parties.

The pilot is the professional mover and is expected to get the load from A to B. That is what the helicopter was hired for.

You can not move a TON of kleenex with a Twin Otter, but you sure can with a B407 via sling load.

Volume as stated in the previous posting was what I was trying to make people see.

The camp manager could put more in the cargo net than he could in the cabin and there by save him costly flying hours.

If the pilot had received a waiver of liability from the camp mgr, the dropped load would have been paid for by the pound, as it was the company was responsible for the full cost, in excess of 110K.

The question that is always asked after any incident or accident is:

Who or what is responsible??????


Cheers, Don

 

[cap]

Bag Swinger ----- the Liability Insurance I mentioned was "over the edge for me" and the conversation was verbal at the time. It involved having my Limited Company's "butt" covered should all hell break loose. This I do know though.........that when the lawsuits start flying and it's everyman for himself, there are few operators out there that will not be advised to "divorce" themselves from their sub-contractor that was involved in the event. If and when that time would arrive, then you as the sub-contracting Limited Company are just another, separate entity for our esteemed friends in the legal community to go after.


On the subject of hook insurance and the like, I once worked for a company that had the whole problem covered. The customer was advised what the hook insurance was and at the time it was $ .40/lb. Most drills weighing 4000 lbs. are worth a tad more than that as one example. So the customer was offered further insurance on the load at a very reasonable price per $1000 of value. This amount was added onto the flight ticket at the end of the day, together with the signed form authorizing the charge. IF they chose not to take the insurance, then they also signed the same form to that effect. Then if the drill, etc. was dropped for WHATEVER reason, they couldn't sue "diddley" or complain because they had been given ample opportunity to have that event covered and had refused IN WRITING. Perhaps loose the contract anyway?........"tough bannanas".....you protect yourself LEGALLY first and then worry about the rest.


As far as this pilot is concerned, I'M responsible for the condition of the equipment that I take with the aircraft for the season or the job. So if someone gives me crap to operate with then the "buck stops with me" and I got no leg to stand on blaming it on someone in Stores or elsewhere. That's what this pilot calls "a cop-out". I offer up this scenario for those in doubt. Think hard about what your answer will be in the witness stand when some smart lawyer asks..."if the equipment was inferior, why did you take it?" You better think hard about what that answer might be and if in doubt, REFUSE to accept that ops gear or that aircraft because it applies to both items. Worried about loosing your job maybe?........hell there are enough good outfits around that you'll run into more companies with excellent equipment than you will that have crap. All we got to do is make sure that cables don't lay out in the rain or mud for 2-3 days and lubricate and maintain the gear. Some of us are prepared to do that and some of us aren't.

 

[Blackmac]

Cap: What the H are you doing up so late.

Well stated observation from somebody who knows what he is talking about.

I have stated before that a contract pilot better make sure that he is covered under the companies liability clause or both the company and the client can go after him. Includes contract engineers.

Cheers, Don

 

[bag swinnger]

Thank's for the feed back guy's.
I find myself just a little spooked over this topic and am now prepared to ask alot more questions from employers and change the way I do some things, as in, breifings will be now held with a lot more cover my ass in mind. I up until this point have had the mindset of one who will provide the best possible service to both the customer and employer. Being fully prepared to work with whatever equipment I am given (one of those attitudes of a low time pilot that is keen)
I am much more likely now to stand up to either a customer or employer for what I see as being right and not having to be worried about being fired, because I have enough time and experience that I will find work again.
I wonder how many other pilots reading this may be working with a similar attitudes.
Well like they say the day that they give us our licences that it is a licence to learn. six years into it and I am still learning lots, thanks again for you're input guy's

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Regardless of what Blackie says, I have worked for the largest and the smallest operators and they ALL had extra optional sling insurance. (some as high as 5 mil.)


If I was moving something worth more than 50 cents a pound I would ask the client if he wanted the extra coverage at his cost. Only one ever said yes, so the lift was put on hold, until the paperwork came thru from the office. When they said no, I would ask them if they had there own insurance, 99% did, and I would put on the flight report BEFORE the lift was done "client declines extra load insurance" and have them sign it! Then your ass is covered unless there is neglect on your part.


Ask your boss what he has set in place. Only a foolish company would involve themselves in expensive external load work with out optional load insurance.

Every doghouse I have ever moved has been self insured by the seismic company along with coverage for 99% of there bags. And thats why they decline the extra heli company insurance because you cannot double dip!

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I know a quaint little story VR, from a company that we both used to work at. Some bags got dropped and the company was paying for them... Not because we legally had to, but because there was the "if you ever want to work for us again" clause. Somehow (I really don't recall how), the oil company got wind of this and was very po'd because they had been paying "Hook Insurance" to the seismic company for years... and every time there was a dropped load the helicopter company paid. It's true they didn't have to "legally"... it was a matter of long-term economics.

HV

 

[VERTICAL REF]

I concur Vibrator!

I have seen this "situation" at three different heli co's.

One company was smart enough to start getting the s/n of the I/O , Sercel or Ram boxes that were dropped, bumped etc. And wait for the repair bill from the seismic company - guess what - when the s/n's didn't match all that BS stopped!


Thats the reason they want the total bags moved for the day - most companies pay a rate per bag moved by the helo. Last I heard was 5 bucks a bag. But that was sooo long ago - thank god!!!