Logging Co-jo Time

[rainman]

:mellow:
Just wondering what the accepted thing is for a person who gets their coveted first gig as a pilot working as a co-pilot on a logging machine( Transwest or Black Tusk).

Can they log those hours or not? I understand that this kind of experience isn't the greatest but at least one would get some ferry time and air time.

R

 

[cyclic monkey]

Log the hours for what you actually did........i.e sitting there counting loads, or actually hands-on-the-stick ferry time.
Your honesty will serve you a lot better at this stage in your career than trying to BS a chief pilot with a story about you pulling timber on a 150' longline !!

 

[rainman]

That's kinda what I thought, as for logging time as meat in the seat I guess you would classify that as co-pilot time in a logbook?? And when you are ferrying or flying crews that would be PIC?

The reason I ask is my buddy who is looking for his first flying job was told that he couldn't log the time as co jo, period, end of conversation. I just wasn't sure of the actual rules of logging time.

Couldn't agree with you more C.M about being honest about your times and abilities as I've heard of quite a few people padding their logbook and overstating their abilities. It's a good way to get in a little over your head. Then you look like a crappy pilot when you can't get a job done properly or with a customer complaint of some sort. B)

 

[cyclic monkey]

Rainman, be careful of the difference between the definitions of PF (pilot flying), PNF (pilot not flying), and PIC (pilot in command).

A low time pilot in a 214 may be the PF (well done buddy), but the grey-haired crusty old veteran (PNF) that has to ride everywhere with him may not agree that the hungry new pup is the PIC.

Log ALL the time in the air, just be honest about what you were doing, and what responsibilities you or other crew members had on that flight.
This may mean changing the headings in your logbook columns, but that's life.
Once you get a bunch of honest PIC time, you can just add it all together, as the subtle differences shouldn't matter anymore..............(and by 1000 hours or so you will know it all by then anyway so it doesn't matter, eh??).

P.S. There are Air Regs and Standards that count co-jo flight time at only 50%, when moving up to a HIGHER level of licence, but I don't think that applies when when just working as a Commercial pilot.

 

[tDawe]

I'm not sure if counting logs compares, but the cover artical of the latest ASL has a paragraph in it about how the pilot logged some 20.3 hours of dual, where as the company paperwork only showed him doing 6.5 hours of training and the rest coming from being right seat on revenue flights.

Cyclic Monkey has a good point about breaking up the log book into PNF vs. PF vs. Dual, although that means writting even smaller.

And I'm not complettly sure how the heli-logging industry works but maybe you can look at it from a CARS / O.C. angle, like if it says logging is a two crew job in the O.C. , then he's in good shape. Just a thought.

Thats my one cent (I'm not good enough to have two yet...)

tDawe

 

[HeloTeacher]

As long as the RFM or Company Ops Manual require 2 pilots, then co-pilot time may be logged, regardless of other factors.

If you are the pilot flying but not PIC it makes no difference.

Just try to learn as much as you while you are there.

 

[rainman]

Thanks for the responses, I was thinking you could log the time some way. So It is a good way to get the foot in the door, better than the eternal road trip.

 

[downwash]

Rainmain, it MAY be a way to get 'a foot in the door' but I hardly think it's a good one. While it certainly provides some exposure to real, and tough, helicopter ops, it doesn't hold much water with most operators when evaluating a pilot's experience. That said, it MAY be better than sitting on your butt by the fire or in the pub, or by the fire in the pub, but I'd truly hate to see you or anyone else miss out on a real job opportunity while gathering 'meat pilot' time. B)

Let's see what that stirs up.

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Rainman, your resume and your logbook tell everyone how good you should be not how good you actually are! Tis better to fly like a 1000 hour pilot with 250 hours than fly like a 1000 hour driver with 7000 in his book!

Bic pens are cheap, "oh shitts" are a lot more valuable...

Would be wise to heed Downwash's words of experience!
All the best!

 

[rainman]

I would think that someone who trained 1.5 years ago and has got nowhere yet made some good contacts along the way should hound those contacts. But! if given the chance maybe it would be a good idea to do the co jo thing in the interim just to get in the industry.

I know that most other options lead to an actual flying job sooner once you get the chance to wash heli's and scrub floors. I was lucky and got paid something right from the get go, unlike 412 d's story( which is pretty damn impressive). I think there are lot's of pups out there who would do the same thing but maybe not as many as before, but that's another thread.

 

[412driver]

i disagree downwash,

i think ANY exposure is solid in this business. case in point, a good friend of mine started as co-joe logging and stuck it out. he THEN went the IFR route came to helijet as a co-pilot and climbed the ladder to the point where today he is a senior 61 training captain.

if you are in a machine flying, even flopping around looking at guages, well....

you ARE flying!!

 

[cyclic monkey]

Downwash, yes, you are stirring it up. Your post surprises me.
I usually respect you opinions and agree with you, and you have a good point.........but..........it's damn hard for young pups to find that other opportunity where they can get real stick-time.
For example, how many 100 hour pups has your company hired this year?

If you did hire newbies, would you be more interested in one with 45 hours ferry time (hands-on) and 425 hours co-jo on a 214 over the last 6 months.........or a guy who has no time other than his schooling and has refused 3 offers of co-jo time with logging companies.

To new pilots.......if someone makes you an offer (that doesn't involve sexual violation).....take it. Get some time in the field, sitting under some spinning blades, and log the time honestly. Shut up, smile alot, and buy a beer for the skipper and engineer when you can afford it. (A good reference from them is better than 25 hours in your logbook!).

Or if you are so damn good as a 100 hour pilot that you think there are lots of better opportunities available......contact Downwash. He apparently knows of lots of opportunities for hot-shots like you.

 

[rainman]

Cyclic Monkey, Now we're talking!! That is exactly what my thoughts were, just was hopin someone else thought the same so advise that I give is a little more founded.

Skids down eh!

 

[Flinger]

I think you 'd be silly to turn down a job like that. You'll get lots of great experience, a chance to do quite a bit of networking and hopefully a good reference some highly respected people.

A chap who worked ground with me last summer (mixing chem) turned down a co-jo job with a 214 operator. He regretted it every day.

We made sure of that! 😀 😀

 

[HBG]

For what it is worth, I started out doing the co-jo thing, I was so happy to be around a helicopter it didn't matter that I was sick for the first week and 1/2 till my gut got used to it. You are flying with guys with alot of hours and alot to teach. You also see the difference between a smooth pilot and one that likes to sitr the pot, hence the days when keeping something down the stomach depended on who you were flying with that day. You are spending 8hrs a day with these guys in the cockpit which leaves you lots of opportunity to ask them everything under the sun about helicopters and their divorse expereinces. I am now moving drills and have used alot of the knowlege I learned during that period to better me as a pilot throughout my flying career. With that said if you do get a co-jo job, don't stop looking for that PIC position. Good luck