Garfield1966
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Local,
Are you suggesting that man has had no noticable impact on the ecosystem?
Are you suggesting that man has had no noticable impact on the ecosystem?
Mars southern icecap shrinking
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local 12 proud
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No and I've never once made that assertion!
Of course man has made his mark, but Im not convinced that the weather is man made either. All one has to do is look at the geologic record to see that the earth and planets (mars) to be specific go through cycles and that big ball of hydrogen with some helium mixed in plays a major roll.
Twenty five years ago they were saying we were moving towards a new ice age. Don't know about you but I was around then and guess what?...No Ice Age. 😉
Garfield1966
Veteran
Calm down sparky. It was just a question. I have not followed all your post and did not take notes so I just wanted to establish some sort of base line for a dialog.
OK, so man has had an effect. On that we agree. I will also assume that neither of us knows exactly (or even roughly for that matter) what that effect is.
I am not going to argue if we are going though some massive climate change or just a blip on the radar. I do not know and I do not think what ever is happening will be on a scale where we wake up one morning and we are freezing our gonads off sitting in Miami Beach or swimming with a floatie at the North Pole. He effect will be slow and unstoppable in my opinion.
The thing that I argue is that since no one really knows what is going on, and since currently this is the only home we have, should we not error on the of safety? After all, if we do nothing and the scientists are right (as they have known to be every now and then) we ill not get a do over and we might be condemning future generations to a ride on a sinking ship. Given all the crap we are dumping into the water, air and ground who knows what the long term effects will be.
As I said earlier, I do not really have a dog in the race as I have no children of my own and have no plans for that to change (Dr. made sure of that) but I do have nieces who I worry about.
Yes our planet has gone through cycles. Who is to say this is one of them. Then there is the fact that we have added 6 billion people to the equation in the last 200 years and are planning on adding another 3 billion on top of that. Logically in my opinion, that has to screw with the natural balance of things.
I do not know what the right path is, I do feel that the one we are on now is not the right one.
OK, so man has had an effect. On that we agree. I will also assume that neither of us knows exactly (or even roughly for that matter) what that effect is.
I am not going to argue if we are going though some massive climate change or just a blip on the radar. I do not know and I do not think what ever is happening will be on a scale where we wake up one morning and we are freezing our gonads off sitting in Miami Beach or swimming with a floatie at the North Pole. He effect will be slow and unstoppable in my opinion.
The thing that I argue is that since no one really knows what is going on, and since currently this is the only home we have, should we not error on the of safety? After all, if we do nothing and the scientists are right (as they have known to be every now and then) we ill not get a do over and we might be condemning future generations to a ride on a sinking ship. Given all the crap we are dumping into the water, air and ground who knows what the long term effects will be.
As I said earlier, I do not really have a dog in the race as I have no children of my own and have no plans for that to change (Dr. made sure of that) but I do have nieces who I worry about.
Yes our planet has gone through cycles. Who is to say this is one of them. Then there is the fact that we have added 6 billion people to the equation in the last 200 years and are planning on adding another 3 billion on top of that. Logically in my opinion, that has to screw with the natural balance of things.
I do not know what the right path is, I do feel that the one we are on now is not the right one.
local 12 proud
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Good points, and I don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle either!
Just as you point out and I've been saying for some time now, take a look at the population explosion and where we're headed with that.
Me...Im just passin thru! 😉
Garfield1966
Veteran
No, unfortunately not, the genie is out and I think the potential for screwing up the planet beyond it’s ability to repair it’s self is very real. If you look at the life forms that inhabit the planet, most are only able to survive in very narrow parameters. I am looking into starting a salt-water fish tank at some point and the parameters that must be maintained are very specific. Certain water clarity and purity, temps, …etc. If something goes out of whack, the system can crash. Humans can only survive with in a narrow climate. We can only see a very narrow spectrum of light, bones are fragile, susceptible to disease. I don’t think we have a lot of wiggle room if things should change. Humans can alter their environment plants and animals do not have that ability.
Personally I think we are screwed.
Personally I think we are screwed.
700IAM
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fish tank at some point and the parameters that must be maintained are very specific.
Personally I think we are screwed.
======================================================
Fish, that reminds me:
Why Did Jonah Board That Ship?
"In the fifteenth year of Amaziah the son of Joash, king of Judah, Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel began to reign in Samaria, and he reigned forty-one years. And he did what was evil in the sight of The Lord; he did not depart from all the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. He restored the border of Israel from the entrance of Hamath as far as the Sea of the Arabah, according to the word of The Lord, the God of Israel, which he spoke by his servant Jonah the son of Amittai, the prophet, who was from Gathhepher. For The Lord saw that the affliction of Israel was very bitter, for there was none left, bond or free, and there was none to help Israel. But The Lord had not said that he would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven, so he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash." (2 Kings 14:23-27 RSV)
"That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish"
Jonah is well-known from his encounter with a great fish (not a symbolic event, since Jesus Christ spoke of it as literal - see the Fact Finder question below), but he was actually recorded in the book of 2 Kings as well, as quoted above. The Lord was bringing His wrath upon sinful Israel (the northern kingdom), using the Assyrians to do it. Although Jonah would have understood that, he would also naturally view the Assyrians with dislike and would prefer to have seen The Lord's wrath fall on them as well - so when The Lord told Jonah to go and warn Nineveh, Jonah was unhappy with his mission. Instead of going east to Assyria, Jonah fled west, to the Mediterranean seaport of Joppa heading for far-away Tarshish.
"Now the word of The Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness has come up before me."
"But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of The Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish; so he paid the fare, and went on board, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of The Lord." (Jonah 1:1-3 RSV)
Jonah should have known better than to attempt to get "away from the presence of The Lord," especially when The Lord had specifically told Jonah to do something; The Lord went along on the voyage.
"But The Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up." (Jonah 1:3-4 RSV)
When the crew of the ship realized that Jonah's presence was a danger to them and the ship, they threw him overboard, but "The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."
"So they took up Jonah and threw him into the sea; and the sea ceased from its raging. Then the men feared The Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to The Lord and made vows.
And The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:15-17 RSV)
Jonah's prayer inside the fish reveals one of the reasons that Christ later referred to that experience of three days in "Sheol" (a Hebrew word for the grave) and the feeling of being forsaken by God. Christ experienced both things Himself, 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and the feeling of being forsaken by God.
"Then Jonah prayed to The Lord his God from the belly of the fish, saying, "I called to The Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and thou didst hear my voice. For thou didst cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood was round about me; all thy waves and thy billows passed over me. Then I said, 'I am cast out from thy presence; how shall I again look upon thy holy temple?'" (Jonah 2:1-4 RSV)
After Jonah had learned his lesson, The Lord ordered him a second time to prophecy to Nineveh, repent or be destroyed. This time, Jonah went.
"Then the word of The Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim to it the message that I tell you." So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of The Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth.
Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he cried, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them." (Jonah 3:1-5 RSV)
Jonah was unhappily successful; the people of Nineveh repented, but that is not what Jonah wanted. Jonah knew that the Assyrians were going to destroy the northern kingdom of Israel because of their unfaithfuness, so he wanted The Lord to destroy Assyria too, or before. Jonah knew that The Lord forgives anyone who repents, so he attempted to sail away in the other direction to keep them from being saved. Ironically, the Savior used Jonah's three days and three nights in the "grave" as an analogy of that very thing - that anyone who repents will be saved.
"But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. And he prayed to The Lord and said, "I pray thee, Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that thou art a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repentest of evil." (Jonah 4:1-2 RSV
Personally I think we are screwed.
======================================================
Fish, that reminds me:
Why Did Jonah Board That Ship?
"In the fifteenth year of Amaziah the son of Joash, king of Judah, Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel began to reign in Samaria, and he reigned forty-one years. And he did what was evil in the sight of The Lord; he did not depart from all the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel to sin. He restored the border of Israel from the entrance of Hamath as far as the Sea of the Arabah, according to the word of The Lord, the God of Israel, which he spoke by his servant Jonah the son of Amittai, the prophet, who was from Gathhepher. For The Lord saw that the affliction of Israel was very bitter, for there was none left, bond or free, and there was none to help Israel. But The Lord had not said that he would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven, so he saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash." (2 Kings 14:23-27 RSV)
"That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish"
Jonah is well-known from his encounter with a great fish (not a symbolic event, since Jesus Christ spoke of it as literal - see the Fact Finder question below), but he was actually recorded in the book of 2 Kings as well, as quoted above. The Lord was bringing His wrath upon sinful Israel (the northern kingdom), using the Assyrians to do it. Although Jonah would have understood that, he would also naturally view the Assyrians with dislike and would prefer to have seen The Lord's wrath fall on them as well - so when The Lord told Jonah to go and warn Nineveh, Jonah was unhappy with his mission. Instead of going east to Assyria, Jonah fled west, to the Mediterranean seaport of Joppa heading for far-away Tarshish.
"Now the word of The Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness has come up before me."
"But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of The Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish; so he paid the fare, and went on board, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of The Lord." (Jonah 1:1-3 RSV)
Jonah should have known better than to attempt to get "away from the presence of The Lord," especially when The Lord had specifically told Jonah to do something; The Lord went along on the voyage.
"But The Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up." (Jonah 1:3-4 RSV)
When the crew of the ship realized that Jonah's presence was a danger to them and the ship, they threw him overboard, but "The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."
"So they took up Jonah and threw him into the sea; and the sea ceased from its raging. Then the men feared The Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to The Lord and made vows.
And The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah; and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." (Jonah 1:15-17 RSV)
Jonah's prayer inside the fish reveals one of the reasons that Christ later referred to that experience of three days in "Sheol" (a Hebrew word for the grave) and the feeling of being forsaken by God. Christ experienced both things Himself, 3 days and 3 nights in the grave, and the feeling of being forsaken by God.
"Then Jonah prayed to The Lord his God from the belly of the fish, saying, "I called to The Lord, out of my distress, and he answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and thou didst hear my voice. For thou didst cast me into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood was round about me; all thy waves and thy billows passed over me. Then I said, 'I am cast out from thy presence; how shall I again look upon thy holy temple?'" (Jonah 2:1-4 RSV)
After Jonah had learned his lesson, The Lord ordered him a second time to prophecy to Nineveh, repent or be destroyed. This time, Jonah went.
"Then the word of The Lord came to Jonah the second time, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim to it the message that I tell you." So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of The Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth.
Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he cried, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them." (Jonah 3:1-5 RSV)
Jonah was unhappily successful; the people of Nineveh repented, but that is not what Jonah wanted. Jonah knew that the Assyrians were going to destroy the northern kingdom of Israel because of their unfaithfuness, so he wanted The Lord to destroy Assyria too, or before. Jonah knew that The Lord forgives anyone who repents, so he attempted to sail away in the other direction to keep them from being saved. Ironically, the Savior used Jonah's three days and three nights in the "grave" as an analogy of that very thing - that anyone who repents will be saved.
"But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. And he prayed to The Lord and said, "I pray thee, Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that thou art a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repentest of evil." (Jonah 4:1-2 RSV
The Little Ice Age lasted roughly from 1300 to around 1870 and dropped temperatures in parts of the northern hemisphere by about 1 degree C.
Chill out,will you?
Told ya so....
We are assured by everyone from David Suzuki to Al Gore to Prime Minister Stephen Harper that "the science is settled." At the recent G8 summit, German Chancellor Angela Merkel even attempted to convince world leaders to play God by restricting carbon-dioxide emissions to a level that would magically limit the rise in world temperatures to 2C.
Climate stability has never been a feature of planet Earth. The only constant about climate is change; it changes continually and, at times, quite rapidly. Many times in the past, temperatures were far higher than today, and occasionally, temperatures were colder.
We are assured by everyone from David Suzuki to Al Gore to Prime Minister Stephen Harper that "the science is settled." At the recent G8 summit, German Chancellor Angela Merkel even attempted to convince world leaders to play God by restricting carbon-dioxide emissions to a level that would magically limit the rise in world temperatures to 2C.
Climate stability has never been a feature of planet Earth. The only constant about climate is change; it changes continually and, at times, quite rapidly. Many times in the past, temperatures were far higher than today, and occasionally, temperatures were colder.
