Needles Found In Turkey Sandwiches On Four Delta Flights

[southwind]

That's a rather quick conclusion to jump to. There's certainly plenty of options to investigate (ie. sleeper cell "test runs," epic QC failures, etc.).

BTW, DL can "rid itself" of just about any employee it wants, anytime it wants, except those covered by a cba. In fact, they tout that on the front page of the HR manual...

Err............................Bankruptcy.............cba out the window...........nice try though !

So now your already saying negative things about the company who signs your check without knowing the facts...............nothing new there I guess !

 

[southwind]

Then explain whats behind your thinly veiled comment "Must be part of that "legendary service" we keep hearing about.."

That's "Legendary Service" from everyone but Kev !

 

[southwind]

And slowely, the facts start to seep through Kev's "I hate my company" wall !

Drogt also told "Good Morning America" Tuesday that his teenage son, who was travelling from Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport on a different flight, was also a victim, and authorities are investigating.
"That was the uncanny thing," Drogt said. "When I landed I spoke to the FBI, then I called my wife to let her know what had happened. She said something happened to our son on a parallel flight from Amsterdam to Atlanta."

http://gma.yahoo.com...topstories.html

Yeah.................it sounds almost TOO uncanny, that all the people knew each other, one way or another and that this Dude's son, ON A DIFFERENT FLIGHT, also found a surprise in his sandwich !

 

[Kev3188]

Err............................Bankruptcy.............cba out the window...........nice try though !

???

I know you're sometimes slow on the draw, but what part of the post you quoted didn't you get? Like it or not, the pilots & dispatchers at our company are covered by CBA's. Therefore, they are not at will employees like the rest of us. What does BK have to do w/anything? Both companies went through it, and here we are today; one big happy family, right?

So now your already saying negative things about the company who signs your check without knowing the facts...............nothing new there I guess !

I think I've been pretty clear that *no one* knows the facts yet, and that all the rocks need to be overturned.

That's "Legendary Service" from everyone but Kev !

You nothing about me or my work record. If you saw it, you'd probably spontaneously combust. But if it makes you feel better, believe what you will. Anything to help you sleep at night, man...

And slowely, the facts start to seep through Kev's "I hate my company" wall !

I hate my employer? By all means show us specific posts that say that. There's a lot of 'em to root through, so take your time. I'll wait.

Yeah.................it sounds almost TOO uncanny, that all the people knew each other, one way or another and that this Dude's son, ON A DIFFERENT FLIGHT, also found a surprise in his sandwich !

Definitely an interesting twist.

 

[metopower]

Yikes.

Must be part of that "legendary service" we keep hearing about...

I'm confused by your statement. What "legendary service"are you referring to? Delta's? Gate Gourmet? KLM? AMS ? Just wondering?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev
I have indeed seen DL's HRPM and it says nothing about treating employees differently depending on the state in which they work. It also doesn't contain sections which apply to one group and not the other.

The HRPM also doesn't contain half of the processes that are necessary in order to terminate an employee.
As much as you hate the bureaucracy of DL, there is not a manager at DL who can walk into work and decide he wants to get rid of an employee without the blessings and approval of a long list of people who make sure DL will stay out of court in wrongful termination cases. The documentation and approvals to get rid of a person are so laborious it would make your head spin.

We know it pushes your agenda of believing that only a union can save a job, but your peers didn't believe the unions fear tactics regarding easy termination then and we're not buying it now.

If you would try a little less hard fighting assimilation with a culture that you admittedly hate and a little more time looking at the success stories of those who have made the transition, you might actually be given the opportunity to move into the mgmt ranks in which you probably could be a solid contributor.

I just made yet one more trip through DTW and I swear I sensed nothing but a group of employees on the ground and in the air that do their jobs well, are as happy with their job situation as anyone is at work (it isn't recreation after all), and who aren't interested in going back to an era that has ended - as good as it might have been.

There are valuable lessons to learn from some of your peers... the ones who have figured out to adapt and win in the new environment in which they have been planted.

 

[southwind]

Yikes.

Must be part of that "legendary service" we keep hearing about...

Running around yelling "Yikes" about someones "Legendary Service", who you refuse to name, tells me all I need to know about which way your leaning, when looking for someone to blame !

 

[Kev3188]

I'm confused by your statement. What "legendary service"are you referring to? Delta's? Gate Gourmet? KLM? AMS ? Just wondering?

it's one of the slogans in IFS....

Kev
I have indeed seen DL's HRPM and it says nothing about treating employees differently depending on the state in which they work. It also doesn't contain sections which apply to one group and not the other.

Then you no doubt know exactly what I'm talking about, and also that it has *nothing* to do with differences between states. No clue why you continue to be fixated on that.

As much as you hate the bureaucracy of DL, there is not a manager at DL who can walk into work and decide he wants to get rid of an employee without the blessings and approval of a long list of people who make sure DL will stay out of court in wrongful termination cases. The documentation and approvals to get rid of a person are so laborious it would make your head spin.

I'm well aware of the process. I'm also well aware that it can be triggered at anytime, for any reason.

We know it pushes your agenda of believing that only a union can save a job, but your peers didn't believe the unions fear tactics regarding easy termination then and we're not buying it now.

Who is "we?" I'm not a fear monger; I traffic in reality.

If you would try a little less hard fighting assimilation with a culture that you admittedly hate and a little more time looking at the success stories of those who have made the transition, you might actually be given the opportunity to move into the mgmt ranks in which you probably could be a solid contributor.

No thanks. I'm not interested in being an apparatchik in a system that is anti-worker, and panders to the lowest common denominator. When/if that changes, maybe...

I just made yet one more trip through DTW and I swear I sensed nothing but a group of employees on the ground and in the air that do their jobs well, are as happy with their job situation as anyone is at work (it isn't recreation after all), and who aren't interested in going back to an era that has ended - as good as it might have been.

No, what you saw is proof positive that pro labor employees are also professional, which lays waste to all the stereotypes and "wedging" the company likes to propagate.

Running around yelling "Yikes" about someones "Legendary Service", who you refuse to name, tells me all I need to know about which way your leaning, when looking for someone to blame !

Your absolute lack of comprehension tells me all I need to know. I hope you're not this impetuous when you're turning wrenches...

 

[737823]

Not sure what representation and wrongful termination has to do with tampered sandwiches on flights from Schipol airport. Interesting neither BOS flights were targeted.

WT, I usually agree with what you say but do you work for DL? I'm sure Kev as an employee knows full well what DLs websites and policies are rather than whatever you obtained from a second hand (perhaps against DL policy) source.

Btw I just flew DL to MCO with a mixed PM-NW and PM-DL crew and were all happy and seemed to work well together. First DL flight since the integration. Generally avoid Orlando whenever possible but had to make an overnight trip. Outbound 73H all PM-NW and return A320 was mixed crew. Don't know how the tampers deal with the 40+ strollers and wheelchairs on those flights.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Don't know how the rampers deal with the 40+ strollers and wheelchairs on those flights.

Josh

Up the stairs... down the stairs... Up the stairs...Down the stairs... Up the stairs...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Josh,
before you break something jumping to conclusions, you should know that Kev and I have a history beyond the public pages of this forum. Thus, he is correct in saying that as a DL retiree, I not only had access to DL's HRPM. I don't speak for DL and never have, any more than any other person, including Kev, speaks for their employer.
What Kev hasn't said is that as a manager at DL, I had the responsibility to hire and fire and provide discipline when it was necessary to do so. Thus, I am dead accurate in knowing that DL has HR processes that are incredibly careful to protect employees and to ensure that there is indeed a due process given to all employees. The idea that Kevin wants to spread that DL employees are subject to immediate termination is simply wrong - and he wont begin to find an HRPM that covers the processes that managers must follow when an employee discipline issue is involved. Since Kevin continues to believe that a union is a necessity, I can only interpret his continued statements about the vulnerability of DL employees at the hands of DL mgmt within his value system which says that big corporations and workers are in constant conflict and that the only recourse for workers is a large organization of their own to protect them.
Kevin is a smart person, highly articulate, and deeply passionate. Most of us don't see this ongoing conflict that Kev sees. Truth be known is that if I had a choice, I would like to have Kev on my team. I am not threatened by his differences of opinion any more than I am with any person. As long as he or anyone else can manage to work within the framework in which they live and work, I want people like Kev on my team.

But the reality is that NW does not exist anymore - and neither does IAM and AFA representation among PMNW employees. DL followed the letter of the law and successfully integrated PMNW people and operations into DL.
One of the flights I was on had a mixed TPA and DTW cabin and ATL cockpit crew. Couldn't tell who was who which is exactly what should happen. Everyone onboard was playing for one team.

Kev,
Unlike others, I have absolutely no doubt about your ability to do your job as good as or better than many of your peers, including some PMDL non-union people.
If you have an evaulation in your P-file showing the high quality of your work (which I fully expect is there), would it not be because DL has an annual evaluation process for all employees while the process at NW only covered probationary employees?

And, yes, I do ask PMNW people what they think about working for DL etc. And the vast majority of people are saying that although things are different than they were with NW, they see that DL gets to the same result using different methods and they are as comfortable or more so with their employer.

I and others raise the question of how you connect needles found in sandwiches to a question of DL's service when we see DL employees working well, integrated and with PMNW employees not seeking to return to what they once knew while at the same time you seem to want to hold onto a world that no longer exists and fewer and fewer people value.

My desire is for you to recognize that your world has moved... so did the world of about 40K other PMNW employees. They seemed to make the turn; today would be a good day for you to do the same.

 

[Kev3188]

What Kev hasn't said is that as a manager at DL, I had the responsibility to hire and fire and provide discipline when it was necessary to do so. Thus, I am dead accurate in knowing that DL has HR processes that are incredibly careful to protect employees and to ensure that there is indeed a due process given to all employees. The idea that Kevin wants to spread that DL employees are subject to immediate termination is simply wrong - and he wont begin to find an HRPM that covers the processes that managers must follow when an employee discipline issue is involved. Since Kevin continues to believe that a union is a necessity, I can only interpret his continued statements about the vulnerability of DL employees at the hands of DL mgmt within his value system which says that big corporations and workers are in constant conflict and that the only recourse for workers is a large organization of their own to protect them.

All of that is lovely. None of it overrides the one sentence on the first page of the HRPM that trumps it all. I'll also remind you that it is "construed" under Georgia state law- one of 4 states that doesn't observe any of the 3 major exceptions to the at will doctrine. But as someone who hired and fired, you already knew that, right?

Can you still access the manual? Go look at the terms of employment, and tell us what it says.

And, yes, I do ask PMNW people what they think about working for DL etc. And the vast majority of people are saying that although things are different than they were with NW, they see that DL gets to the same result using different methods and they are as comfortable or more so with their employer.

Wait. You yourself just noted that you couldn't tell who was who. Is asking what carrier they came from your opener?

Let's be honest for a minute. Do you honestly think that an agent working a flight is going to tell you the "whole truth" about what's going on? For one, they're busy. Second, for all they know, you may be one of the "secret flyers" (or whatever they're now called) that get rewarded for reporting things back to the company. And third, they may just not want to talk to a total stranger (NRSA or not).

I and others raise the question of how you connect needles found in sandwiches to a question of DL's service

I didn't. That would be you who brought the idea disgruntled employees into the mix. I merely followed the direction the thread took.

when we see DL employees working well, integrated and with PMNW employees not seeking to return to what they once knew while at the same time you seem to want to hold onto a world that no longer exists and fewer and fewer people value.

Remind us how you know that many PMNW aren't seeking to return to representation (or PMDL, for that matter). You sure about that? Is a bit of chit-chat at the gate podium an accurate sampling of the workforce? Asked any rampers? How 'bout F/A's?

My desire is for you to recognize that your world has moved... so did the world of about 40K other PMNW employees. They seemed to make the turn; today would be a good day for you to do the same.

No. Today is a good day to work toward getting labor and capital on equal footing. Today is a good day to collectively value ourselves, and what we bring to the table. Today is a good day to fight for consistent application of policies and procedures systemwide.

Today is NOT a good day to shrug our shoulders, buy into the "we're just lucky to have a job" mindset, and slink off into the night. Today is NOT a good day to settle for the lowering of standards that your former employer seems to embrace. That may have worked for you; I'm betting the other way.

 

[WorldTraveler]

What I know is that your doubts really aren't manifested in real life. If there really were this wave of firings, there would be no shortage of lawsuits - and involvement of the DOL. In a world connected by the internet, there would also be plenty of stories of DL people recounting their stories.

Haven't looked at the HRPM... I do know that DL is looking for people to rework its entire HR policies. Did you put your name in that hat for that effort?

People are honest enough to know what they believe..... if DL people really believed in the theories you do, there would be representation on DL's property... but every major workgroup decided it wasn't necessary.

You confirm that you don't agree with the majority with your treatise.... while it is passionate and eloquent and I respect your position, you are not in line with the majority in a system where the majority DID determine the outcome.

The vast majority of DL people don't see the evils you do.
They also had no reason to connect the stil-under-investigation incident with needles in food with DL's service.
The idea of disgruntled employees was raised with respect to DL's catering contractor. Of course if the needles were planted by passengers themselves, then even the idea of disgruntled employees will be thrown out the window. And since the Dutch police are now taking responsibility for the investigation, I suspect the evidence does point to something that occurred on the ground in AMS.
And it is worth noting that DL's service for the past number of months has been above average among its peers in the industry...

 

[Kev3188]

What I know is that your doubts really aren't manifested in real life. If there really were this wave of firings, there would be no shortage of lawsuits - and involvement of the DOL.

No one said there was a "wave of firings." I said the possibility of being terminated at any time for any reason exists. Full stop.

Haven't looked at the HRPM...

...And yet you continued to comment anyway. Go check it out. Seriously.

I do know that DL is looking for people to rework its entire HR policies. Did you put your name in that hat for that effort?

I wasn't asked to be a part of "Project Ignite."

People are honest enough to know what they believe..... if DL people really believed in the theories you do, there would be representation on DL's property... but every major workgroup decided it wasn't necessary.

I love the modifiers you like to use for wiggle room. BTW, pilots aren't a major group?

Your attempts of late at "othering" me as some crackpot hammering out manifestos in the woods somewhere are inaccurate. There are literally 1000's of pro labor employees on the property across all workgroups. I would not be surprised to see some more elections at the Widget in the near-to-mid term. Will they be successful? Who knows?

They also had no reason to connect the stil-under-investigation incident with needles in food with DL's service.
The idea of disgruntled employees was raised with respect to DL's catering contractor.

Nope, you did, and then opened the door further by stating:

since DL can't rid itself of its disgruntled employees in its own country, it would not seem too far-fetched to think that its contractors in other countries might try a thing or two to damage their own employer.

I pointed out the fallacy in your above post. The company can in fact get rid of any at will employee it wants, when it wants.

 

[WorldTraveler]

COULD and DOES are two entirely different things.
The fact that they are not the same is exactly why the representation elections have not been successful - and there has been enough time since the merger that if there really was a problem, it would surface and DL employees would respond.

The wiggle room DL and any other company leaves itself in its written policies does not necessarily mean they run rough shod over their employees in practice.

DL employees have been involved in representation campaigns for years - and other than the pilots decades ago, no major group has not gained representation.

You seem to miss the part that I respect you for your passion; I hardly think of you as some isolated whacko acting out plans that will topple the empre - or even dream of it.

Again, your campaign of "they could" is not backed up by reality - which is why no one really sees it is a problem.

----

It is not lost on me or others that there are probably 20-25K DL employees who want a union, based on the voting results.
But the voting system is essentially a "winner take all" system that means the will of the majority governs the outcome.

THAT is why adaptation is necessary - unless there is some real reason to believe history will change. I don't fault you or others for trying... but the expectation should be that it is a long shot based on nearly 80 years of DL history.