Northwest

[Hackman]

Don't you mean US Airways? I do believe they were the first to lose the pensions and pay. No wait, I believe it was AA who took the first concensions (outside of BK! )

[post="288326"][/post]​

I believed US Air was first to bend over too, but I recently found out it was Airtran, right after 9-11.

Of course if you want to talk about the all time concession kings, that would be the twu at AA, who have continuously given concessions since 1983 on every contract they have "negotiated".

With the latest 2003 sellout being the bottom that all carriers are now trying to beat. :down:

 

[Bob Owens]

I believed US Air was first to bend over too, but I recently found out it was Airtran, right after 9-11.

Of course if you want to talk about the all time concession kings, that would be the twu at AA, who have continuously given concessions since 1983 on every contract they have "negotiated".

With the latest 2003 sellout being the bottom that all carriers are now trying to beat. :down:

[post="288365"][/post]​

The AirTran concessions were insignificant, it was the USAIR concessions that really started the ball rolling.

If you recall the mechanics were the only group that voted NO. The company said they needed the concessions to avoid BK and promised that they would not come back for more. After the mechanics voted NO the IAM put tremendous pressure on the mechanics to vote Yes in a revote.

Shortly after the revote and passage of the concessions USAIR went BK and asked for more concessions.

A year later UAL was singing the same song to its employees, concessions or BK. The mechanics were once again the only group that voted NO. UAL eventually got what they wanted and went BK anyway.

Then AA statred singing the same tune. But instead of small concessions AA went stright to a 25% cut in compensation plus millions in rule changes. In one fell swoop, without going BK they got more concessions than any other carrier.

The fact is that USAIR and UAL were simply trying to match AAs pre 2003 costs. The TWU had been giving AMR concessions for twenty years. The TWU specialized in fragmenting its membership and creating all sorts of low labor cost options for AMR including 12 year progressions, SRPs, OSMs, Jr Fleet Service Clerks, part timers, employee paid medical and prefunding etc. So while the TWU would claim that their topped out workers had the same wage as other union workers the fact is that the TWU contract was much cheaper averaged out per employee than even non-union carriers like Delta.

In the meantime NWA kept making money. However fearing that they were going to be left out of the feeding frenzy on labor they started to lose money and look to their enployees for concessions too. Once again the mechanics are resisting. Once again they stand alone, so far.

The fact is that airline workers have been suckered. All of us. Look at the flights, they are full. Cheap fares may be part of the reason but as the NYTimes revealed the airlines only needed to charge a little more and they could have broke even. Fares still would have been cheap.

Lets look at what is going on here. The planes are full, yet the airlines claim they cant make a profit.

Every time a passenger buys a ticket they pay departure tax. So the government is doing very well despite the airlines losses.

Every full flight burns that much more fuel. So the fuel companies are doing very well despite the airlines losses.

All these passengers are are keeping all these airplanes very busy, logging more and more flight hours. So the banks or other financial institutions that lease the aircraft are doing well despite the airlines losses.

As the airplanes fly they use up parts and other goods. So the suppliers are doing well despite the airlines losses.

Lets not forget the tourist industry that benifits because cheap airfares leave tourists more cash to spend on their vacation.

Men like Howard Hughs, CR Smith etc are history. Todays Airline CEOs come from places like Hallmark Cards. They have no particular interest in the airlines. Most of the airlines are "Institutionally owned". For instance AMR is 97% Institutionally owned. Its a fair guess that these Institutions have many other investments, and many likely benifit from cheap airtravel especially if they own Airport bonds(landing fees), shares in oil companies (fuel), airplanes (leases) etc. Look at GE over at USAIR. AS long as USAIR keeps paying the lease and the employees keep working for less GE keeps collecting on their leases, thats why despite three years in BK they still are flying.

The fact is that everyone EXCEPT the airlines is doing a booming business.

As long as we keep giving they keep raking in the bucks. However if we all should simply stop showing up for work then all the cash flow stops. They stop pumping the jet fuel, no more landing fees are paid, departure tax revenue stops, Hotels and tourist spots sit empty and people spend less money.

These Institutions that own the airlines might have more of an incentive to see the airlines lose money than make money. The airlines are very labor intensive and if the airlines make money the workers will want more. Thats not the case with the leases. How many employees does it take to monitor leases? If they go on strike so what? If the airline employees demand more money then there will be less to go for leases, fuel etc. So as long as the planes are flying the airline is generating wealth for someone. However when we stop flying the wealth generation of everyone connected to the airlines stops. So despite the "financial condition" of the airline industry it is still labor intensive so if labor stands together we still have stregnth. If we all walked out the economy would be severely impacted and there is no way they could replace us all.

The fact is that we all have failed, except some of the workers at NWA. We owe the workers of NWA an apology for what we have done to our professions. The question is will this vicious cycle continue or will the workers at NWA put a stop to it.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

Who is going to vote for their own demise when it may be possible to drag the situation out? It other words, what do they have to lose? "They" being the ones who would surely be laid off.

[post="287812"][/post]​

Didn't stop the skirts at UAIR from voting "Yes" on a package that cost 2,000+ their jobs.

It appears there are gonads on the property at NWAC, so I don't think there will be a "Well I'm protected, screw those other guys/stations" like we saw at UAIR.

 

[eolesen]

It appears there are gonads on the property at NWAC, so I don't think there will be a "Well I'm protected, screw those other guys/stations" like we saw at UAIR.

[post="288412"][/post]​

We'll know next Monday. Either they cave like UA and US, or they walk.

Even if they settle, whatever they gain/retain now they're likely to lose in bankruptcy court.

If the union's strike fund is as low as it has been said to be by the press, how do you think they'll be able to afford fighting an arbrogation effort in bankruptcy court?

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

But, unlike you, we still have our pensions and other post retirement benefits.

[post="288336"][/post]​

But for how long? If NWA is able to gut their maintenance, then gut the F/As followed by a trip to BK you know that their pensions and post retirements are on the block. With the twu at AA it would be a slam dunk for aarpey to point the finger at the other airlines and cry the blues. The twu will be right there wiping away the tears.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

The fact is that we all have failed, except some of the workers at NWA. We owe the workers of NWA an apology for what we have done to our professions. The question is will this vicious cycle continue or will the workers at NWA put a stop to it.


This evil, vicious cycle will stop if EVERY airline employee supports NWA AMTs. Don't let others fight for you. Come 12:01 AM Saturday 20th Eastern Time will be the time for ALL to stand together.

 

[FWAAA]

But for how long? If NWA is able to gut their maintenance, then gut the F/As followed by a trip to BK you know that their pensions and post retirements are on the block. With the twu at AA it would be a slam dunk for aarpey to point the finger at the other airlines and cry the blues. The twu will be right there wiping away the tears.

[post="288439"][/post]​

If Arpey were so anxious to cancel the pensions, don't you think the terminations at UAL and USAir followed by the freezing at DL would have provided sufficient incentive by now?

Sorry to take a page from AMFA Dave's playbook, but your constant misinformation on this topic sounds like the FEAR that the TWU has been accused of using. You know those posts with the word "FEAR" in huge type?

AA made money last quarter, WITH its pensions, while UAL and USAir did not (you know - the companie where the pensions were terminated last year and the year before).

 

[Bob Owens]

If Arpey were so anxious to cancel the pensions, don't you think the terminations at UAL and USAir followed by the freezing at DL would have provided sufficient incentive by now?

Sorry to take a page from AMFA Dave's playbook, but your constant misinformation on this topic sounds like the FEAR that the TWU has been accused of using.  You know those posts with the word "FEAR" in huge type?

AA made money last quarter, WITH its pensions, while UAL and USAir did not (you know - the companie where the pensions were terminated last year and the year before).

[post="288443"][/post]​

The reason why AA is keeping its pension is because its cheaper and its the only thing that AA can claim to offer its employees. Otherwise AA is the worst of the lot. No double time, only 5 recognized holidays that are oly paid at half pay if worked etc. The concession on holidays more than covered the amount the company contributes to the pension. When we lost the Holidays we lost $5000. They put less than half that into the pension.

 

[FWAAA]

The reason why AA is keeping its pension is because its cheaper.

[post="288462"][/post]​

True. For now.

And, with the exception of a couple dozen disgruntled employees who post here on USAviation.com, AA's failure to terminate its pensions in a "me-too" style has helped to greatly improve morale.

Not among the couple dozen disgruntled who post here, of course.

 

[Bob Owens]

True. For now.

And, with the exception of a couple dozen disgruntled employees who post here on USAviation.com, AA's failure to terminate its pensions in a "me-too" style has helped to greatly improve morale.

Not among the couple dozen disgruntled who post here, of course.

[post="288464"][/post]​

How would you know? You dont even work for AA.

The fact is morale sucks, thats why they have more people quitting than ever before. This year alone we have seen at least six members of management quit, never saw that before. The management turnover is so great that I dont even know who a lot of these people are.

 

[FWAAA]

How would you know? You dont even work for AA.

The fact is morale sucks, thats why they have more people quitting than ever before. This year alone we have seen at least six members of management quit, never saw that before. The management turnover is so great that I dont even know who a lot of these people are.

[post="288475"][/post]​

How would I know?

Because as a customer, I interract with many AA employees. Lots of them. And the ones I talk to are not happy about the paycuts but very glad they don't work at UAL, USAir or any other near-bankrupt airline. Overall, morale is pretty good.

Glad to hear the disgruntled you encounter are quitting. About time.

 

[Bob Owens]

How would I know?

Because as a customer, I interract with many AA employees.   Lots of them.   And the ones I talk to are not happy about the paycuts but very glad they don't work at UAL, USAir or any other near-bankrupt airline.  Overall, morale is pretty good.

Glad to hear the disgruntled you encounter are quitting.  About time.

[post="288476"][/post]​

So you only know the side they show the customer. Chances are your interaction is confined to non-union gate agents and maybe a few FAs who probably think you are management so they tell you what they think you want to hear. Chances are you dont speak to any mechanics, chances are that if you did, since they would be line mechanics they voted NO and are not happy. They wouldnt care less if you were management or not, they would tell it to you straight.

By the way I didnt say that those who quit were disgruntled, I just said they quit, most of the mechs that quit were the most productive ones they had.