OKIE-HOMA

[Ken MacTiernan]

"Second, what do you mean AA "might have been" a powerhouse? AA is the largest airline IN THE WORLD! Hello! Earth to NHBB! That doesn't count as a "powerhouse" in your book?"

POWERHOUSE with a work force morale second only to NWA.

POWERHOUSE with a management team that sticks not only their hand but ENTIRE arm into the cookie jar.

POWERHOUSE with slogans like UNEQUAL Shared Sacrifice.

POWERHOUSE with a tulsa president with his hands in their pocket.

If that's a POWERHOUSE when are my pay & benefits going to be returned?

 

[eolesen]

AA's revenue accounting and accounts receivable was in Lake Success -- that's what moved to Tulsa in the 70's.

I'll have to dig out the annual report, but AA moving its HDQ had little to do with cheap labor and everything to do with corporate taxes and the financial crisis that NYC was in during the 70's.

Plus, moving HDQ only affected the 1000 or so people who worked at 633 Third, and had little impact on any of the operational groups. Flight training and the Stewardess College were already located at GSW from the time it opened in the 50's.

 

[Bear96]

Not so sure there Bear. First off the COLA is always shot down by the local union leadership, so it never makes it to the floor. Second, it's about cash, I don't recall anything being said about perks, but I could be wrong.

But, if it was to make it to the floor for a vote, explained to the members, and didn't result in a paycut for those in the lower cost area, it would pass.

So you're saying the next time there is a scheduled pay increase, the people in OK/TX would forego that increase so those in NY could get a larger raise?

I remain sceptical.

If what you're saying is true and it's such a good idea, why don't you go ahead and negotiate it? Surely AA wouldn't mind as long as their total costs don't increase.

"Second, what do you mean AA "might have been" a powerhouse? AA is the largest airline IN THE WORLD! Hello! Earth to NHBB! That doesn't count as a "powerhouse" in your book?"

POWERHOUSE with a work force morale second only to NWA.

POWERHOUSE with a management team that sticks not only their hand but ENTIRE arm into the cookie jar.

If that's a POWERHOUSE when are my pay & benefits going to be returned?

I guess no business anywhere is a "powerhouse" then, especially airlines, because almots every employee out there (especially in the aviation industry) thinks morale stinks, their management is greedy, and they should get more pay and benefits.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Would the union members living in low-cost areas stand for their brethren in higher-cost areas getting more perks and $ for doing the same job?

Don't think so.

The extra money paid to someone in the higher cost of living area doesnt put more money in your pocket. it is meant to offset the 8 thousand dollar tax bill or the 4500 dollar insurance bill.

😉

 

[Bear96]

Believe me, I know what it is like to live in one of the most expensive areas of the country.

But what does that have to do with the willingness of employees in other areas to permit it to happen?

 

[Bob Owens]

I believe that AA initially got Tulsa because they had already outgrown their operation at LGA and the price was right.

As far as a COLA the fact is, despite Bear's snipes, most unions outside of the airline industry do have pay differentials between workers in different states due to local differences in costs.

It only makes sense.

Airlines pay more for everything else, why should they get off cheap on Labor?

SWA pays their NY employees more. In order to get the quality they wanted they had to pay more.

I've said all along that if Tulsa wants to fight for a NY wage I'll support them 100%, but when Tulsa imposes a Tulsa wage on me in NY I'll fight that 100%.

To those who would argue that we should move I say fine, let AA shut down their operations in high cost areas and let me bump to a lower cost area. The problem with that is that the high cost areas generate most of AAs revenue, so there would not be much left of the company without those operations.

The big goal for Tulsa is to generate a mere $500 million, thats with 7000 TWU workers. Well the NY metro area probably generates more than four times that with maybe 2500 TWU workers, many of them part timers at that. And, the only way that Tulsa is going to meet that measly $500 million is by sending even more of its C-check cards out to the line! So in reality some of the credit for that $500million should go to the line as well.

I believe that if the facts were laid out for the workers in Tulsa that there would be very little resistance to a Cola. I say this based on many conversations with people from Tulsa, nor Bear96, what do yuo base your opinion on this matter on?

 

[Bear96]

As far as a COLA the fact is, despite Bear's snipes, most unions outside of the airline industry do have pay differentials between workers in different states due to local differences in costs.

Since you see fit to dismiss my observations as mere "snipes," then please explain why the AA unions haven't fought for such a change. After all, everyone here seems to be in agreement that it would be a good idea, the fine union brothers at AA wouldn't have a problem with it, and it is such a noble cause. Right?

I believe that if the facts were laid out for the workers in Tulsa that there would be very little resistance to a Cola. I say this based on many conversations with people from Tulsa, nor Bear96, what do yuo base your opinion on this matter on?

My intimate understanding of the union mentality from years of first-hand experience.

Additionally, the proof is in the pudding. If geographically based pay rates are so common among unionized work groups as you allege, then surely the AA mechanic group must have thought of this idea before, right? (Unless you are suggesting they are stupid.) It is not a new concept. So why hasn't it ever come up before in negotiations? It seems like such a no-brainer, it should have been proposed years ago. Yet it appears it wasn't. Now why would that be?

Prove me wrong. Make this an item that is addressed in the next negotiations.

 

[Bob Owens]

Since you see fit to dismiss my observations as mere "snipes," then please explain why the AA unions haven't fought for such a change. After all, everyone here seems to be in agreement that it would be a good idea, the fine union brothers at AA wouldn't have a problem with it, and it is such a noble cause. Right?
My intimate understanding of the union mentality from years of first-hand experience.

Additionally, the proof is in the pudding. If geographically based pay rates are so common among unionized work groups as you allege, then surely the AA mechanic group must have thought of this idea before, right? (Unless you are suggesting they are stupid.) It is not a new concept. So why hasn't it ever come up before in negotiations? It seems like such a no-brainer, it should have been proposed years ago. Yet it appears it wasn't. Now why would that be?

Prove me wrong. Make this an item that is addressed in the next negotiations.

It has been brought up in the past and rejected by the company. In fact the company does not even offer its non-union workforce regional pay.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Since you see fit to dismiss my observations as mere "snipes," then please explain why the AA unions haven't fought for such a change. After all, everyone here seems to be in agreement that it would be a good idea, the fine union brothers at AA wouldn't have a problem with it, and it is such a noble cause. Right?
My intimate understanding of the union mentality from years of first-hand experience.

Additionally, the proof is in the pudding. If geographically based pay rates are so common among unionized work groups as you allege, then surely the AA mechanic group must have thought of this idea before, right? (Unless you are suggesting they are stupid.) It is not a new concept. So why hasn't it ever come up before in negotiations? It seems like such a no-brainer, it should have been proposed years ago. Yet it appears it wasn't. Now why would that be?

Prove me wrong. Make this an item that is addressed in the next negotiations.

If 7000 people in tulsa make less money the twu union dues would also be less thats why it has not been implemented

😀

 

[Bear96]

It has been brought up in the past and rejected by the company.

A proposal that is cost-neutral to the company has been brought up and rejected? In other words, the union has offered to forego a pay increase for (for example) TX/OK workers so that JFK workers could have an increase (or more of an increase), with no additional net cost to the company, and AA rejected it? I would like to see some proof for that assertion.

If you can back that up, I would agree with you that AA management is being rather shortsighted on the issue.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

"I guess no business anywhere is a "powerhouse" then, especially airlines, because almots every employee out there (especially in the aviation industry) thinks morale stinks, their management is greedy, and they should get more pay and benefits."

In your post where you claim AA to be a powerhouse it seems as if you are implying that being a "powerhouse" they are doing things correctly.

I guess our definitions of a powerhouse differ since we are on different sides of the union fence.

Which company is more of a powerhouse?

1) The company like AA that makes a profit. Where management takes million dollar bonuses and claims that SHARED Sacrifices are shared just not EQUAL. Where morale is in the sewer.

2) The company that makes a profit. Where management doesn't take million dollar bonuses while the employees burden concessions. Where morale is high.

Easy question. Example #2 is a much more powerhouse of a company because the employees believe in the company. The only thing I believe AA will do is take future million dollar bonuses. Oh, and the twu int. officers will not have to share any sacrifice either.

 

[Bagbelt]

The co. has agreed to start guys on an advanced step in the past and does in the northeast, several stations start title 2 at step 4 now. A geographical premium is not out of the question for A scalers from a negotiation standpoint.

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Dumb AA Planning that left me sitting at GATE K-11 in Chicago today for over two hours waiting to get de-iced.

Rush to load the passengers, then sit. Way to GO AA! And to top it off, they ran out of the De-Icing fluid and had to wait an additional hour!

 

[flyhigh]

There have been a lot of topics I think are odd or different, but this one has topped the stupidity chart.

Why doesn't AA, or most (if not all) airlines have geographically based pay...it violates the socialist mentality of a union...we're all equal.

...and by the way, MacTiernan...how could you possibly assume that you are so all knowing as to say that "morale is in the sewer"? Whay evidence do you have to back up this claim? If morale was truly that bad, don't you think it would be reflected in the company's performance? I think most people would agree that Continental is a generally good company. They get a lot of accolades for employee morale etc. How is it that CO lost money and AMR was profitable? Now, before you go off on the idiotic concessions rant, take a look at the history of CO...their employees have been among the lowest paid for quite some time. Maybe, just maybe, most of you who wouldn't be happy if they won the $350 million lottery because it wasn't $400 million are just insulating yourselves with other unhappy people. I see plenty of generally happy AA employees everytime I fly AA. Nobody wants to work...however, in order to put food on the table we need to. Maybe you're just hanging around the 10 people who share your view (kind of like George Bush...I only hear from the people I want to hear from) and ignoring the people who are doing good and accepting the reality of the industry. Conversely, the people who don't have an utter disline for their very being, because it means working for AMR, are not interested in hanging around you...

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

The crux of the problem here, is as basic as early US history............................TAXATION without REPRESENTATION !!(You remember BOSTON and King Georges tea...Flyhigh, don't you) ???

Union members in BOS/BDL/LGA/JFK/EWR/PHL/DCA/MIA/SJU/SAN/LAX/SFO/SEA are "being taxed"(union dues), and their voices are NOT heard(represented)

Union workers in ORD/DFW/TUL, and everywhere else in between, are taxed(union dues), however, they're known for not "speaking too much", so therefore their voices are heard.

You know, I have to laugh, when the pro business..."do gooders", use to turn their noses UP in disgust at the knowlege that the IBT(Teamsters) were "corrupted" by the despicable Mafia.

Someone please tell me, WHAT is the difference between the IBT/Mafia, and AA/TWU ???


NH/BB's