Pay Cuts Announced

[Vikedog64]

Far be it for me, part of the dying US Airways, to make judgements on Delta, but I do question the small paycut that management wants from the non-union groups...which is about everybody. Now before all of you blast me for this, I have looked at and compared the labor cost of DAL vs. USA and with the bleeding of both companies it appears the 10% asked is proporionately smaller considering the difference in airline size. While it is true we took big cuts, it still "appears" to have not been enough. The amount of loss at DAL has been much more then US (much because you are larger), it still seems a very large underestimate AND that doesn't involve the pilots part. AND, the pilots seem hell bent on not giving anywhere near the 1 billion DAL wants. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

SO...having said that, could this 10% across the board paycut be breathing room to negotiate with the pilots? Nothing like alittle divide and conquer to put the pressure on. Sure worked at US for years.

OR, is DAL setting themselves up so they CAN go in chapter 11 and either blame the pilots or make the claim that 10% just wasn't enough..another US tactic.

God, I really do have got to get a life. :unsure: :blink: 🙁

[post="186214"][/post]​

Paycuts and benefit cuts bring the total of our cuts to 22% total. The 10% is quite misleading. 😉

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't know where Vaughn Cordle got his so-called expertise, but I have yet to see him demonstrate it.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NHBB's:

In a company where the labor costs of all groups except the pilots are in line with the competition, I think that it is pretty safe to assume that pilot labor costs will soon be reduced dramatically, either in Chapter 11 or outside. It will be more than 10% - most likely the package will be valued between 700M and 1B. The status quo will not be lasting much longer. If the pilots and management do not come to an agreement soon, their contract will be washed in a Section 1113 hearing.
For a Delta pilot's perspective, seeClick here, then click on Delta Articles

I am not sure of the specifics of the lump sum, but I believe that the company and the pilots reached a deal which will allow recently retired pilots to continue to fly after retirement. The deal also stipulates that Delta will not terminate the pilots retirement plan until February of next year.

For the pilots, membership has so far had it privileges.

Whether the point of our favorite cyber crossdresser is valid still remains to be seen. US Airways flight attendants are in their second or third round of concessions. I heard that the latest is a 23% pay cut being considered on top of what they have already given up.

UAL has given concessions, and some are not happy with afa-CWA representation, hence the UFAU movement.

AA gave back roughly 15 percent, and then thrashed for months about the methodology used to vote. Also, they thrashed about for the better part of a year about just who was going to be president and whose ballots should be counted.

It seems to me that all in all, my group of flight attendants is not faring much worse that our peers at the legacy carriers. In some cases, we are faring better. If so, this shows that sometimes the "hassle factor" of membership outweighs the privileges of membership.

At this time, for us, I believe this to be the case.

ah

[post="186223"][/post]​

=================================================
Aislehopper,
First, I hope that You and your non union group will have to take ONLY a 10% cut, and NEVER have to give more, and NEVER see the inside of BK court.

(I know this is'nt easy for you), BUT what "HOTEL" has said over and over again, on this DL board is most likely true. That UNIONISM, during these tough times, MIGHT have kept the F/A's from the "10%" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So whether folks "like" HOTEL, or not, he IS RIGHT.
Senior DALPA members, walking away with "7 figures" ($$$$$$$) is a perfect example.

Regards,
NH/BB's
RETIRED/Thank GOD

 

[DalMD88]

These paycuts will put most frontline workers well behind AA, UAL, and of course the mother of all LCC's SW. Most work groups will be ranked around 6th or 7th, just ahead of JetBlue and Airtran. so who is the highest payed? SW in every non pilot work group.

 

[scorpion]

These paycuts will put most frontline workers well behind AA, UAL, and of course the mother of all LCC's SW. Most work groups will be ranked around 6th or 7th, just ahead of JetBlue and Airtran. so who is the highest payed? SW in every non pilot work group.

[post="186431"][/post]​

You are 100% correct in saying SW is the highest paid but DAL mechanics will still be ahead of AA mechanics and more power to them, ROCK ON!!!!!!!!

 

[DLFlyer31]

=================================================
That UNIONISM, during these tough times, MIGHT have kept the F/A's from the "10%" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So whether folks "like" HOTEL, or not, he IS RIGHT.
Senior DALPA members, walking away with "7 figures" ($$$$$$$) is a perfect example.

Regards,
NH/BB's
RETIRED/Thank GOD

[post="186423"][/post]​

How would unionism have kept the F/A's from giving 10%? How did unions stop paycuts from happening at UA,US and AA? They didn't. Unions can't prevent economic inevitabilities.

Sure some DL pilots are going to leave DL with millions, but the rest of the DL pilots are going to get screwed royally. DALPA is sacrificing the futures of the many, so a few can walk away wealthy. Seems like DALPA is more like management.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

How would unionism have kept the F/A's from giving 10%? How did unions stop paycuts from happening at UA,US and AA? They didn't. Unions can't prevent economic inevitabilities.

Sure some DL pilots are going to leave DL with millions, but the rest of the DL pilots are going to get screwed royally. DALPA is sacrificing the futures of the many, so a few can walk away wealthy. Seems like DALPA is more like management.

[post="186462"][/post]​

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We will NEVER know if DL F/a's would have been exempt from the 10%, because they're NON UNION !!!!!!!!

(It's emphatically clear that DALPA did'nt "take" Jerry's 10%)

AND(DLFlyer31),

WHAT PART of "being UNIONIZED(for senior pilots) Has it's privilege"(which I clarified in my previous post) DID'NT YOU UNDERSTAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

 

[DLFlyer31]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AND(DLFlyer31),

WHAT PART of "being UNIONIZED(for senior pilots) Has it's privilege"(which I clarified in my previous post) DID'NT YOU UNDERSTAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

[post="186497"][/post]​

Which is exactly why unions have lost so much ground in this country. All efforts are made to protect the senior members and the junior members are treated like garbage. Not surprisingly, young workers entering the workforce don't find this arrangement so appealing and choose to go without a union.

 

[aislehopper]

=================================================
Aislehopper,
First, I hope that You and your non union group will have to take ONLY a 10% cut, and NEVER have to give more, and NEVER see the inside of BK court.

(I know this is'nt easy for you), BUT what "HOTEL" has said over and over again, on this DL board is most likely true. That UNIONISM, during these tough times, MIGHT have kept the F/A's from the "10%" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So whether folks "like" HOTEL, or not, he IS RIGHT.
Senior DALPA members, walking away with "7 figures" ($$$$$$$) is a perfect example.

Regards,
NH/BB's
RETIRED/Thank GOD

[post="186423"][/post]​

NH/BB's:

I think that VikeDog pointed out that we are a little past 10% in concessions due to some prior changes in our work rules. But as I said pretty early in this thread, it could have been a lot worse.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the merits of my belonging to a union at this stage. Whether or not a workgroup has or is taking cuts has more to do with the underlying profitability of the company than the union/non union status of its workgroups.

AA is far more unionized than Delta. Yet, all of the AA unions gave the amount of concessions that Carty required under threat of bankruptcy.

Had our industry peers at AA, UAL, and U been able to hold the line because of their union status, I might reconsider my position and agree with you and Mrs. Doubtfire.

I believe that unions do not have much power to set wages and benefits in this environment. Ultimately, if ALPA does not deliver what Jerry wants, he will wash the company in bankruptcy. Therefore, ALPA just has the power to fight a delaying action for what is eventually coming.

Had we all been unionized at Delta, I expect that Leo would have followed the same tactic as Carty. Our pilots would not have the luxury of extended talks - we all would now be talking about the concessions that our unions gave a year or so ago under threat of bankruptcy.

The final reason why a union would have made zero difference for Delta flight attendants is legal. The last AFA election was held roughly two years ago. Typically, it takes a union two to three years to negotiate a first contract. During this time, the state of the law allows a company to unilaterally change wages and benefits if it is for a business purpose and not punitive.

Either way you look at it, a union would not have prevented cuts.

Respectfully,

ah

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

You might not realize this....but if there is a union on the property, you don't get a choice about membership. So, the younger employees are members too, even if they "choose" to not be. Of course, some unions allow you to reject membership but you still have to pay the dues regardless (not much sense in that, is there?)

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

NH/BB's:

I think that VikeDog pointed out that we are a little past 10% in concessions due to some prior changes in our work rules. But as I said pretty early in this thread, it could have been a lot worse.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the merits of my belonging to a union at this stage. Whether or not a workgroup has or is taking cuts has more to do with the underlying profitability of the company than the union/non union status of its workgroups.

AA is far more unionized than Delta. Yet, all of the AA unions gave the amount of concessions that Carty required under threat of bankruptcy.

Had our industry peers at AA, UAL, and U been able to hold the line because of their union status, I might reconsider my position and agree with you and Mrs. Doubtfire.

I believe that unions do not have much power to set wages and benefits in this environment. Ultimately, if ALPA does not deliver what Jerry wants, he will wash the company in bankruptcy. Therefore, ALPA just has the power to fight a delaying action for what is eventually coming.

Had we all been unionized at Delta, I expect that Leo would have followed the same tactic as Carty. Our pilots would not have the luxury of extended talks - we all would now be talking about the concessions that our unions gave a year or so ago under threat of bankruptcy.

The final reason why a union would have made zero difference for Delta flight attendants is legal. The last AFA election was held roughly two years ago. Typically, it takes a union two to three years to negotiate a first contract. During this time, the state of the law allows a company to unilaterally change wages and benefits if it is for a business purpose and not punitive.

Either way you look at it, a union would not have prevented cuts.

Respectfully,

ah

[post="186511"][/post]​

AH,
"Point/counter point". ONLY in America

In regard to "Mrs Doubtfire" ????

"Sorry HOTEL", we'll always be NH friends, BUT that was so friggin' funny, I almost pee'd my pants laughing !!
You've got to admit, AH got you on that one !!!

NH/BB's

 

[Bob Owens]

czerny-

Everyone is taking a 10% pay cut...including Song as well as significant changes in benefits (for the third time).

Fly-

As noted many times before, mgmt is already significantly BELOW market averages in every group including senior mgmt. Pilots, however, are SIGNIFICANTLY above market average. Mgmt wil now be even more behind and pilots will at worst still be toward the top of their peers.

The reality is that the 10% was a pretty poor move by mgmt. This will most likely leed to a lot of people leaving fro greener pastures just when Delta needs them most.

[post="185654"][/post]​

What market are you talking about? The airline industry or all corporations in general?

If you want to use skills then the executives are certianly not the only ones "underpaid".

Leave for greener pastures? Well if thats how loyal they are let them go right? SWA executives are the only ones out there worth anything, they have properly managed their company, unlike the rest.

 

[TheDog2004]

NHBB is here to stir the pot. You really think anyone from AA wants the best for Delta, or anyone else?

 

[DalMD88]

You are 100% correct in saying SW is the highest paid but DAL mechanics will still be ahead of AA mechanics and more power to them, ROCK ON!!!!!!!!

[post="186438"][/post]​

Actually my list shows us under AA. Topped out hanger pay at AA$5,309;DL$5,221. We are almost the same for line guys with AA still ahead.

 

[Birdman]

Actually my list shows us under AA. Topped out hanger pay at AA$5,309;DL$5,221. We are almost the same for line guys with AA still ahead.

[post="187816"][/post]​

Actually my paycheck says(topped out, hanger at AA,80 hrs. pay):

$2451.20 gross

healthcare premiums:$36.78 medical (2 adults, 1 child) with a $35.00 mo. increase in 2005

$4.73 dental

$9.50 vision

How is this more than $5,221 (a month ??) at DL???

BTW, Go AMFA!!