pilot scope clause

[paul1]

could someone here please explain what the pilots scope clause is and how it interacts with american eagle

 

[Winglet]

could someone here please explain what the pilots scope clause is and how it interacts with american eagle

American Eagle is a separate company from American Airlines. AA pilots consider AE a competitor for jobs and not a "sister" company. APA scope says that all flying on behalf of AA belongs to AA pilots except as specifically stipulated in the scope clause. The short version is that AE can operate 50 seat and below aircraft, plus 43 ATR-72 turboprops, plus 47 70-seat class airplanes. There is a total number of aircraft limit that AE has to be below tied to the number of narrowbody aircraft operated by AA. There are other stipulations such as routes and exceptions for other commuter outsourcers beside AE.

 

[will fix for food]

American Eagle is a separate company from American Airlines. AA pilots consider AE a competitor for jobs and not a "sister" company. APA scope says that all flying on behalf of AA belongs to AA pilots except as specifically stipulated in the scope clause. The short version is that AE can operate 50 seat and below aircraft, plus 43 ATR-72 turboprops, plus 47 70-seat class airplanes. There is a total number of aircraft limit that AE has to be below tied to the number of narrowbody aircraft operated by AA. There are other stipulations such as routes and exceptions for other commuter outsourcers beside AE.

After the 22 CRJ's are delivered Eagle will be maxed out. The real commuter growth will be when they start contracting out with Trans States, Chatauqua, and all the other guys with RJ's waiting to place them somewhere. Everybody is all worried about Eagle and not paying attention to the other guys that already have planes in large numbers on hand.

Isn't Chatauqua already operating out of ORD?

 

[FWAAA]

After the 22 CRJ's are delivered Eagle will be maxed out. The real commuter growth will be when they start contracting out with Trans States, Chatauqua, and all the other guys with RJ's waiting to place them somewhere. Everybody is all worried about Eagle and not paying attention to the other guys that already have planes in large numbers on hand.

Isn't Chatauqua already operating out of ORD?

Not exactly. Once the 22 new CRJs are delivered, the 70-seater limit will be reached, but Eagle will still be far below its APA scope clause exception maximum for regional jets, which is 110% of the mainline fleet count (the 110% counts all regional jets, no matter the size).

As to the pilot scope clause, it doesn't matter if Eagle or a 3rd party flies the regional jets, they're still limited all the same, so unless APA members fly them, AA cannot add any more 70-seaters, whether they're flown by Eagle or any other regional jet operator. The APA could theoretically agree to allow a relaxation of that limit, but I doubt it happens unless AA really makes it worth their while. And I doubt AA will agree to fly 70-seaters as mainline planes, so the 70-seater limit will be reached once all 47 are flying.

Chautauqua Airlines is now flying out of ORD, but those planes were simply moved from STL, where they had previously flown the American Connection routes inherited by AA when it bought TWA. AA moved the Chautauqua operation to ORD since it was no longer needed at STL and so some Eagle planes could be moved to MIA.

 

[appelbo]

Not exactly. Once the 22 new CRJs are delivered, the 70-seater limit will be reached, but Eagle will still be far below its APA scope clause exception maximum for regional jets, which is 110% of the mainline fleet count (the 110% counts all regional jets, no matter the size).

As to the pilot scope clause, it doesn't matter if Eagle or a 3rd party flies the regional jets, they're still limited all the same, so unless APA members fly them, AA cannot add any more 70-seaters, whether they're flown by Eagle or any other regional jet operator. The APA could theoretically agree to allow a relaxation of that limit, but I doubt it happens unless AA really makes it worth their while. And I doubt AA will agree to fly 70-seaters as mainline planes, so the 70-seater limit will be reached once all 47 are flying.

Chautauqua Airlines is now flying out of ORD, but those planes were simply moved from STL, where they had previously flown the American Connection routes inherited by AA when it bought TWA. AA moved the Chautauqua operation to ORD since it was no longer needed at STL and so some Eagle planes could be moved to MIA.

The scope clause have protected both American pilots and Eagle pilots to some extent from outsourcing. However it was ment that Eagle would never fly any Jet airplanes. (Jets came) There would never be any larger then 50 seat Jet airplanes flown by Eagle. (It looks like they have 47 aircraft with more then 50 seats) There would never be any first class seating at Eagle. (All the 70 seaters will be outfitted with first class seating configuration) The list goes on. That scope clause is a joke! American Eagle pilots will soon enjoy an unlimited fleet of 76 seaters on their property.
Unfortunately APA are so shortsighted with Eagle that they didn't react when Chautauqua Airlines came rumbling into ORD. They seem not even to care, that management are using Jet Blue to fly old Eagle routes with 100 seaters in a code sharing agreement.
As the old saying going. If you cant beat em... Maybe for once, it would pay off to think outside the box.

I would like to see AMR incorporate Eagle with American. Then buy Jet Blue and finally order 46 widebodys on top of the 787 already ordered. Use B-737 and smaller aircraft for their domestic operations and configure the rest of the fleet for all International flying.
American would once again be the largest Airline in the world and everyone would be one happy family.

 

[Winglet]

The scope clause have protected both American pilots and Eagle pilots to some extent from outsourcing. However it was ment that Eagle would never fly any Jet airplanes. (Jets came) There would never be any larger then 50 seat Jet airplanes flown by Eagle. (It looks like they have 47 aircraft with more then 50 seats) There would never be any first class seating at Eagle. (All the 70 seaters will be outfitted with first class seating configuration) The list goes on. That scope clause is a joke! American Eagle pilots will soon enjoy an unlimited fleet of 76 seaters on their property.
Unfortunately APA are so shortsighted with Eagle that they didn't react when Chautauqua Airlines came rumbling into ORD. They seem not even to care, that management are using Jet Blue to fly old Eagle routes with 100 seaters in a code sharing agreement.
As the old saying going. If you cant beat em... Maybe for once, it would pay off to think outside the box.

I would like to see AMR incorporate Eagle with American. Then buy Jet Blue and finally order 46 widebodys on top of the 787 already ordered. Use B-737 and smaller aircraft for their domestic operations and configure the rest of the fleet for all International flying.
American would once again be the largest Airline in the world and everyone would be one happy family.

The agreement with JetBlue is NOT a codeshare and thus scope is not applicable. AA wil only get more 70 seat aircraft if they manufacture a bankruptcy. What AA is doing with CHQ is legal according to the scope exception, thus there is nothing to be gained by fighting it. AE or CHQ, it's still outsourcing regardless. As usual AE ALPA wants the APA to do their fighting for them since their contract is even weaker than the APAs. AE is in real trouble with mostly 50 seat junk and just a few 70 seat junky CRJs (crap compared with the E175 in pax comfort). Merging with JetBlue might be a good thing since it would bring the E175s to AA and setup for a order of 100 seat class airplanes, which AA badly needs. I doubt AMR will assimilate AE into AA as long as AE ALPA is willing to work cheap. The future of AE with a large number of ever-increasingly economically obsolete airplanes is a big question mark unless Arpey can kill APA scope. That said, NOTHING surprises me anymore in the airline industry.

I think a seniority merger and some fences to protect both sides with Jet Blue's pilots could go very well and easy. Although I don't think anyone, including most industry observers have confidence that present AA management would be up to the task. AE is quite a different matter from JetBlue with regards to any seniority integration. There is not good blood between the APA and AE ALPA.

 

[appelbo]

The agreement with JetBlue is NOT a codeshare and thus scope is not applicable. AA wil only get more 70 seat aircraft if they manufacture a bankruptcy. What AA is doing with CHQ is legal according to the scope exception, thus there is nothing to be gained by fighting it. AE or CHQ, it's still outsourcing regardless. As usual AE ALPA wants the APA to do their fighting for them since their contract is even weaker than the APAs. AE is in real trouble with mostly 50 seat junk and just a few 70 seat junky CRJs (crap compared with the E175 in pax comfort). Merging with JetBlue might be a good thing since it would bring the E175s to AA and setup for a order of 100 seat class airplanes, which AA badly needs. I doubt AMR will assimilate AE into AA as long as AE ALPA is willing to work cheap. The future of AE with a large number of ever-increasingly economically obsolete airplanes is a big question mark unless Arpey can kill APA scope. That said, NOTHING surprises me anymore in the airline industry.

I think a seniority merger and some fences to protect both sides with Jet Blue's pilots could go very well and easy. Although I don't think anyone, including most industry observers have confidence that present AA management would be up to the task. AE is quite a different matter from JetBlue with regards to any seniority integration. There is not good blood between the APA and AE ALPA.

Agreed. Thanks to John Darrah.

 

[will fix for food]

Not exactly. Once the 22 new CRJs are delivered, the 70-seater limit will be reached, but Eagle will still be far below its APA scope clause exception maximum for regional jets, which is 110% of the mainline fleet count (the 110% counts all regional jets, no matter the size).

As to the pilot scope clause, it doesn't matter if Eagle or a 3rd party flies the regional jets, they're still limited all the same, so unless APA members fly them, AA cannot add any more 70-seaters, whether they're flown by Eagle or any other regional jet operator. The APA could theoretically agree to allow a relaxation of that limit, but I doubt it happens unless AA really makes it worth their while. And I doubt AA will agree to fly 70-seaters as mainline planes, so the 70-seater limit will be reached once all 47 are flying.

Chautauqua Airlines is now flying out of ORD, but those planes were simply moved from STL, where they had previously flown the American Connection routes inherited by AA when it bought TWA. AA moved the Chautauqua operation to ORD since it was no longer needed at STL and so some Eagle planes could be moved to MIA.

For all intents and purposes, they are maxed out. They aren't going to be ordering any more 50 seat or under planes.

My point was that given scope relaxation any new growth most likely will come from another source other than Eagle, yet all the focus and fear is centered around Eagle.

 

[wcs]

. AA wil only get more 70 seat aircraft if they manufacture a bankruptcy.

Or negotiate a change to scope

Merging with JetBlue might be a good thing since it would bring the E175s to AA and setup for a order of 100 seat class airplanes, which AA badly needs. I doubt AMR will assimilate AE into AA as long as AE ALPA is willing to work cheap.
I think a seniority merger and some fences to protect both sides with Jet Blue's pilots could go very well and easy. Although I don't think anyone, including most industry observers have confidence that present AA management would be up to the task.

I think this is a contradiction. While AA (AMR) may need a 100 seat option, obtaining that option from B6 wouldn't be the most efficient way to acquire it. Why acquire another carrier when AE already exists? Why acquire B6 employees when you can home grow a less senior, less expensive work force without them(see AA 1983 through 1990)? Seniority merger and fences didn't go well and easy in any of AA's transactions in the past. (There was still some discontent over Trans-Carib). But you are certainly correct that current management wouldn't be up to the task of doing this correctly or efficiently( see TW).

 

[Winglet]

Or negotiate a change to scope


I think this is a contradiction. While AA (AMR) may need a 100 seat option, obtaining that option from B6 wouldn't be the most efficient way to acquire it. Why acquire another carrier when AE already exists? Why acquire B6 employees when you can home grow a less senior, less expensive work force without them(see AA 1983 through 1990)? Seniority merger and fences didn't go well and easy in any of AA's transactions in the past. (There was still some discontent over Trans-Carib). But you are certainly correct that current management wouldn't be up to the task of doing this correctly or efficiently( see TW).

The same reason cut-rate outsourcers like AE aren't flying 777s for RJ paychecks. Scope. Defense of scope is the #1 item on the negotiation agenda and BTW, AA hasn't even asked for 100 seat exception in their current concession demands. But they do want basically unlimited 76 seat airplanes to replace the obsolete fleet that AE has now. Pound sand is my response. Let AE drown in it's own RJs.

 

[AAviator]

Page 16 of AMR's annual report brings up the possibility of shipping Eagle again. I hope it happens this time, but I doubt anyone wants that fleet.

Out dated fleet- 39 ATR's, 39 135's, and 59 140's. All scrap.

 

[goodgirl37]

Or negotiate a change to scope


I think this is a contradiction. While AA (AMR) may need a 100 seat option, obtaining that option from B6 wouldn't be the most efficient way to acquire it. Why acquire another carrier when AE already exists? Why acquire B6 employees when you can home grow a less senior, less expensive work force without them(see AA 1983 through 1990)? Seniority merger and fences didn't go well and easy in any of AA's transactions in the past. (There was still some discontent over Trans-Carib). But you are certainly correct that current management wouldn't be up to the task of doing this correctly or efficiently( see TW).

Giving up scope clause would be the most absurd thing AA pilots could do, SWA pilots have the best scope in the industry and that is the reason they rejected the first contract, to tighten the scope clause.. Dont give up scope or your fleet will be chopped in half and most of you will be out on the street, trust me we saw it at US and UAL, it wasnt pretty.

 

[wcs]

Giving up scope clause would be the most absurd thing AA pilots could do,

Looking back on my post, I realize that it may have given the impression that I was advocating reduction of scope protection.
I apologize for my lack of clarity. I was only trying to point out that alternative way that AA could obtain that change versus bankrupcty.
Not that the APA relinquish it.

 

[will fix for food]

Page 16 of AMR's annual report brings up the possibility of shipping Eagle again. I hope it happens this time, but I doubt anyone wants that fleet.

Out dated fleet- 39 ATR's, 39 135's, and 59 140's. All scrap.

You want to sell Eagle so bad but it is the APA's scope clause that created the fleet makeup that is currently making Eagle unsellable.

Ironic isn't it?

 

[Winglet]

You want to sell Eagle so bad but it is the APA's scope clause that created the fleet makeup that is currently making Eagle unsellable.

Ironic isn't it?

The APA doesn't buy airplanes for AMR, nor do they decide which type to buy. That is a management's responsibility and they are solely culpable for it. No doubt, if there was NO scope, AMR would have bought even more future beercans than they have now. Eagle exists via a specific exception to scope, one that doesn't necessarily have to be renewed.