with that mentality, i'm a little bit upset that i did my drivers ed training in a plymouth reliant. I should have joined the military and learned how to parallel park an 18 wheeler from the get go. Why stop there even...I've been thinking of taking the boaters safety training, the QE II sounds like a good starter......
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Silly Question
- Thread starter Vortex Ring
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Fully Articulated
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A bit acerbic today? :wacko: That is exactly what happens to a young fellow who joins the Military to be a Heavy Equipment Driver. He also carries a DND-404 and does not need a Civ drivers licence of any kind. Much in the same way that we don't have any form of licence from TC. The Mil equivalent is the Instrument Rating Test.MagSeal said:I should have joined the military and learned how to parallel park an 18 wheeler from the get go.
I remember one afternoon back when I rode side-saddle in the Sea Beast. We flew one to CYQM so the A/C could write his INRAT. Unfortunately he failed. The TC inspector wanted to know how were were going to get back to CYAW after the pilot failed the exam. "I'll be filing IFR" was his reply. "Not on my wacth" or words to that effect was the reply from the TC inspector. He even tried to intervene with ATC; however, Mil Standards are not in his bailiwick and the IRT overrides any TC exam when operating a mil aircraft. The CARS amplify thusly.
==================================================
SUBPART 2 -- APPLICATION
Application
102.01 These Regulations do not apply in respect of
(a) military aircraft of Her Majesty in right of Canada when they are being manoeuvred under the authority of the Minister of National Defence; 😀
donnybrook
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Hey VR,
I'm not trying to argue directly with you, just trying to wrap my brain around the CF's logic, so if something sounds inflammatory it's not pointed at you!
So here goes...I hear what you're saying about never going solo once operational, but it seems to me like, as an analogy, there's one guy doing the maze from the beginning and one guy doing it backwards from the end. They're both assuming that they're gonna meet but it might take a while, with quite a few wrong turns...
I realize that most of these changes are $$$driven and are out of the hands of the people who must actually implement these savings, but where will the CF draw the line? The multi guys are continuing on a fixed wing platform, with the main difference being more engines (and a focus on IFR). The helo guys are learning a completely new type of flying. As you know the bulk of it is close to the ground/water where an increased comfort and flying skill is needed to give one a fighting chance should the shite hit the fan. An extension to the AFT course could include NVG and slinging to reduce pressure on the OTU but cutting basic hours seems dangerous to me. I'd rather see the Harvard cut right out of the syllabus and more hours added to the helo course, but that's another can to open.
I'm not trying to argue directly with you, just trying to wrap my brain around the CF's logic, so if something sounds inflammatory it's not pointed at you!
So here goes...I hear what you're saying about never going solo once operational, but it seems to me like, as an analogy, there's one guy doing the maze from the beginning and one guy doing it backwards from the end. They're both assuming that they're gonna meet but it might take a while, with quite a few wrong turns...
I realize that most of these changes are $$$driven and are out of the hands of the people who must actually implement these savings, but where will the CF draw the line? The multi guys are continuing on a fixed wing platform, with the main difference being more engines (and a focus on IFR). The helo guys are learning a completely new type of flying. As you know the bulk of it is close to the ground/water where an increased comfort and flying skill is needed to give one a fighting chance should the shite hit the fan. An extension to the AFT course could include NVG and slinging to reduce pressure on the OTU but cutting basic hours seems dangerous to me. I'd rather see the Harvard cut right out of the syllabus and more hours added to the helo course, but that's another can to open.
VortexRing, when I was with the government I was involved with the original training scheme in Portage from day one. The unit I was attached to issued the contract on behalf of DND, I was a technical adviser.
Prior to leaving around 2000 the system you are talking about was being tossed around. At that time they were looking for a civilian operator to supply twin engine helicopters for training ( twin means one engine and another one, for the newf's).
My reccomendation at the time was the following, again with the idea of saving bucks was the following.
Excluding, rescue, all army pilots be trained in Penticton or someplace similar in the twin engine aircraft. More expensive initially but a saving in mountain training eventually. The biggest advantage of this is that the student really appreciates all the nuances of the machine at altitude and different wind configurations.
Maratime pilots will always be operating at sea level, Army pilots are sent everywhere including hight terrain without prior notice, which at times is asking a pilot with a minimum experience, which relates to exposure to a risk not only the aircraft, but everybody on board. Remember the same as on civvy street the Captain is always responsible, so give him the training to work with.
It would be nice if all helicopter flying was carried out at sea level.
I agree with the concept, but it should be carried out as above.
Lufthansa I believe have there own traing school and send pilots straight from the school to the airline.
My thoughts only and can be used.
Cheers, Don
Prior to leaving around 2000 the system you are talking about was being tossed around. At that time they were looking for a civilian operator to supply twin engine helicopters for training ( twin means one engine and another one, for the newf's).
My reccomendation at the time was the following, again with the idea of saving bucks was the following.
Excluding, rescue, all army pilots be trained in Penticton or someplace similar in the twin engine aircraft. More expensive initially but a saving in mountain training eventually. The biggest advantage of this is that the student really appreciates all the nuances of the machine at altitude and different wind configurations.
Maratime pilots will always be operating at sea level, Army pilots are sent everywhere including hight terrain without prior notice, which at times is asking a pilot with a minimum experience, which relates to exposure to a risk not only the aircraft, but everybody on board. Remember the same as on civvy street the Captain is always responsible, so give him the training to work with.
It would be nice if all helicopter flying was carried out at sea level.
I agree with the concept, but it should be carried out as above.
Lufthansa I believe have there own traing school and send pilots straight from the school to the airline.
My thoughts only and can be used.
Cheers, Don
Vortex Ring
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You guys are exactly right on many counts and I don't take the comments as sarcastic or offensive. This type of exchange is exactly why military pilots should join the much discussed professional association in other parts of this site.
Fully Articulated will agree I am sure when I say that decreasing experience is a major concern for us. As for where to train pilots, our helicopter pilots must have a common base because whether they fly a Sea King or a Griffon, they could easily operate over water or in high mountains. Even scarier to think about, I remember guys getting posted to Labs in Comox and going on a SAR in the mountains and neither guy had a formal mountain flying course, just a unit check out. The mountain flying course is a much cherished plum that is often used as a carrot to get guys to progress in other areas of their careers when it should be mandatory for all helo pilots in the CF, that's another matter......
There is much the military can learn still but as noted before a lot is $$$ driven, or rather not driven due to lack of $$$.
We (line pilots) absolutely agree that helo drivers should learn on a Jet Ranger like machine before moving up. As for cutting out the Harvard II, that will never happen because that phase is where we teach instrument flying and it serves as a selection process for us to decide if students will go on to fighters, helos or multi. Remember it is still a 50/50 chance for pilots as to where they will go. Just because you join after getting your multi IFR as Seneca college and after having flown a couple thousand hours with some charter outfit on Navahos or a similar type, it does not mean you will go multi-engine, you could very easily find yourself in a Sea King.
That issue alone is one of our big problems, guys get sent to a community they want nothing to do with because that is where we need pilots at the time. Then the grown ups are surprised when these kids split as soon as their 9 year commitment is up :wacko:
You think you guys are confused, try it from our end when you are flying with a young pilot who hates the machine, hates the job, hates where he lives, hates everything about his professional life and is counting down to his release and getting back into a plank aircraft.
There is no easy answer, well there is to you and I but not to the grown ups and the bean counters. We have for years asked for a way to attract, recruit and train pilots directly into a community and keep them there. Taking pilots directly into seperate streams would be significantly more infrastructure and overhead, that means more money, that means it'll never happen.
All of this is why I am such a strong believer in HELICOP, a program I strongly supported and promoted while I was a Reservist out west. We had pilots walk in with a helicopter licence wanting to fly helicopters, not the CF18 or the C130. We trained them ourselves at the squadron, they got their wings with us, we then trained them on the Griffon and several have deployed to Bosnia and gone on to great jobs plus continue their association with the Reserves. We got highly motivated pilots, they got a 412 endorsement and instrument rating, I feel it is a win/win. Why this cannot be used similarly for multi-engine fixed wing I'll never understand. Why not take some King Air charter guy and train him or her as a Reserve C130 driver. The CF needs more programs like that with understanding and supportive units which allow the pilots the flexibility to serve as a Reservist and to fly commercially.
I think that is the way ahead for us but hey I'm a heratic, always trying to use common sense, geeezzz :blink:
Thanks for all your inputs guys. I really hope the contract in Portage gets renewed and that the Jet Ranger is still part of the equation but don't be surprised to see 412s start doing autos to touchdown near Portage with students with 10 hours of helo time and an instructor.
I give that foolish idea less than a year before they ball up an airplane.
Oh and Winnie, you give me enough heads up, no promises but if there is any way I could work out permission to take you or anyone else for a spin I'll do it. We are not allowed to let folks take the pole in the hover but in forward flight no problem, you can jump up front and try the beast out. I'll get you a flip with Fully Articulated, he knows the beast 1000 times better than most drivers out here 😉
Fully Articulated will agree I am sure when I say that decreasing experience is a major concern for us. As for where to train pilots, our helicopter pilots must have a common base because whether they fly a Sea King or a Griffon, they could easily operate over water or in high mountains. Even scarier to think about, I remember guys getting posted to Labs in Comox and going on a SAR in the mountains and neither guy had a formal mountain flying course, just a unit check out. The mountain flying course is a much cherished plum that is often used as a carrot to get guys to progress in other areas of their careers when it should be mandatory for all helo pilots in the CF, that's another matter......
There is much the military can learn still but as noted before a lot is $$$ driven, or rather not driven due to lack of $$$.
We (line pilots) absolutely agree that helo drivers should learn on a Jet Ranger like machine before moving up. As for cutting out the Harvard II, that will never happen because that phase is where we teach instrument flying and it serves as a selection process for us to decide if students will go on to fighters, helos or multi. Remember it is still a 50/50 chance for pilots as to where they will go. Just because you join after getting your multi IFR as Seneca college and after having flown a couple thousand hours with some charter outfit on Navahos or a similar type, it does not mean you will go multi-engine, you could very easily find yourself in a Sea King.
That issue alone is one of our big problems, guys get sent to a community they want nothing to do with because that is where we need pilots at the time. Then the grown ups are surprised when these kids split as soon as their 9 year commitment is up :wacko:
You think you guys are confused, try it from our end when you are flying with a young pilot who hates the machine, hates the job, hates where he lives, hates everything about his professional life and is counting down to his release and getting back into a plank aircraft.
There is no easy answer, well there is to you and I but not to the grown ups and the bean counters. We have for years asked for a way to attract, recruit and train pilots directly into a community and keep them there. Taking pilots directly into seperate streams would be significantly more infrastructure and overhead, that means more money, that means it'll never happen.
All of this is why I am such a strong believer in HELICOP, a program I strongly supported and promoted while I was a Reservist out west. We had pilots walk in with a helicopter licence wanting to fly helicopters, not the CF18 or the C130. We trained them ourselves at the squadron, they got their wings with us, we then trained them on the Griffon and several have deployed to Bosnia and gone on to great jobs plus continue their association with the Reserves. We got highly motivated pilots, they got a 412 endorsement and instrument rating, I feel it is a win/win. Why this cannot be used similarly for multi-engine fixed wing I'll never understand. Why not take some King Air charter guy and train him or her as a Reserve C130 driver. The CF needs more programs like that with understanding and supportive units which allow the pilots the flexibility to serve as a Reservist and to fly commercially.
I think that is the way ahead for us but hey I'm a heratic, always trying to use common sense, geeezzz :blink:
Thanks for all your inputs guys. I really hope the contract in Portage gets renewed and that the Jet Ranger is still part of the equation but don't be surprised to see 412s start doing autos to touchdown near Portage with students with 10 hours of helo time and an instructor.
I give that foolish idea less than a year before they ball up an airplane.
Oh and Winnie, you give me enough heads up, no promises but if there is any way I could work out permission to take you or anyone else for a spin I'll do it. We are not allowed to let folks take the pole in the hover but in forward flight no problem, you can jump up front and try the beast out. I'll get you a flip with Fully Articulated, he knows the beast 1000 times better than most drivers out here 😉
donnybrook
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Why is there a hiring freeze on the HELICOP guys/reservists when there is such a dire pilot shortage?
Vortex Ring
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I'm not around the Reserves much now so I don't know. I can only guess that the $$$ dried up for the Jet Ranger lease, but still no excuse, you could send guys to Portage for wings, Batfink did it. Not an easy thing to do when you have a family and all but it is possible.
Reserves are our best resources and the most misunderstood and misused or mismanaged. Unfortunate but many Regular Force folks just don't comprehend the concept and make Reserve service very difficult in joint units. It is a constant struggle to get those Reservists a fair shake, courses and flexible and fair scheduling.
If it were up to me, we would grow our reserve units in the Air Force significantly and instead of competing with industry we would work with commercial operators and develop more cooperation. I would rather see pilots have flexible scheduling agreements so they could fly the military Griffon and their commercial Bell 212.
From everything I've seen, heard and learned over the past few years, there is tremendous learning that can go both ways whenever military pilots get together with commercial pilots.
Reserves are our best resources and the most misunderstood and misused or mismanaged. Unfortunate but many Regular Force folks just don't comprehend the concept and make Reserve service very difficult in joint units. It is a constant struggle to get those Reservists a fair shake, courses and flexible and fair scheduling.
If it were up to me, we would grow our reserve units in the Air Force significantly and instead of competing with industry we would work with commercial operators and develop more cooperation. I would rather see pilots have flexible scheduling agreements so they could fly the military Griffon and their commercial Bell 212.
From everything I've seen, heard and learned over the past few years, there is tremendous learning that can go both ways whenever military pilots get together with commercial pilots.
Vortex Ring, no-one seems to have addressed your question about why no operator seems to want to hire you to fly their JetRanger(s). The answer is most likely that, without a bunch of equivalent (light, single-turbine) experience, you really couldn't be expected to be an adequately safe, productive light pilot without GIVING you enough time for the operator to be comfortable about risking his 1/4 to 1/2 million dollar (+) revenue-producing asset. If you came to visit here, and we felt like throwing away a half-hour of 206 operating costs, we could show you what I mean in a real hurry. Trust me, you might make the transition a lot easier in a training role with a combined school/charter operator. Good luck, regardless - just like the 100-hr. rookie, perseverance will win through! B)
Hey Vortex,
When you've had enough of the 5 star cruises and Sea King driving, give some serious thought about working internally to change the Reg/Reserve force issues. You have great insight and experience in this area. I know how frustrating it is, but with your drive, maybe things could change. You did an outstanding job at 408, but things have definitely slid since you left. 🙁
As for 412's for initial trg, good luck, they'd burn through the 15 within 6 months just doing Cold Wx starts and Fuel System checks (I can see Pratt & Whitney stock climbing through the roof on Twin Pack replacements alone). I can't imagine a 15 hour BHS student programming the AMS, let alone tackling an Auto (God forbid to touchdown) Grabber Green will need a fire truck for sure....
BTW: 1 Wing is looking at doing Auto's to touchdown soon. That should quickly account for the remaining Griffons within a couple of years....
Cheers!
When you've had enough of the 5 star cruises and Sea King driving, give some serious thought about working internally to change the Reg/Reserve force issues. You have great insight and experience in this area. I know how frustrating it is, but with your drive, maybe things could change. You did an outstanding job at 408, but things have definitely slid since you left. 🙁
As for 412's for initial trg, good luck, they'd burn through the 15 within 6 months just doing Cold Wx starts and Fuel System checks (I can see Pratt & Whitney stock climbing through the roof on Twin Pack replacements alone). I can't imagine a 15 hour BHS student programming the AMS, let alone tackling an Auto (God forbid to touchdown) Grabber Green will need a fire truck for sure....
BTW: 1 Wing is looking at doing Auto's to touchdown soon. That should quickly account for the remaining Griffons within a couple of years....
Cheers!
Vortex Ring
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Downwash thanks for the reply and I truly believe you are absolutely correct. I'll keep at it though, I know I have the ability to learn and the drive to get there.
Batfink, thanks for you very kind assesment. I'm trying desperately to get back to 408 as a Reg Force driver. One thing for sure, I would love to return as a Res guy in there too, maybe you can arrange a fall for either McQ or EK eh? 😀
As for Portage, oh my gosh do I ever hope that common sense prevails......please just let a straight forward machine dominate....keep the lil' Rangers......
Batfink, thanks for you very kind assesment. I'm trying desperately to get back to 408 as a Reg Force driver. One thing for sure, I would love to return as a Res guy in there too, maybe you can arrange a fall for either McQ or EK eh? 😀
As for Portage, oh my gosh do I ever hope that common sense prevails......please just let a straight forward machine dominate....keep the lil' Rangers......
407 Driver
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If you're trying to convince us it's a good idea to train on a 412, it won't work.
The commercial sector has to make money, so having a 100 hour 412 endorsed pilot does not make any sense at all.
All I can say is Enjoy spending our hard earned taxpayers money on your 412 training !! :down: :blink: :wacko:
The commercial sector has to make money, so having a 100 hour 412 endorsed pilot does not make any sense at all.
All I can say is Enjoy spending our hard earned taxpayers money on your 412 training !! :down: :blink: :wacko:
407
I know sarcasm doesn't come across well on a computer, but I don't think anyone here thinks a 412 as an Ab-Initio trainer is either practical, economical or safe...
VR
We would be more than willing to send EK to Sea Kings, maybe we can swap for you... <_< McQ is a great guy, but he doesn't get alot of help right now...
I know sarcasm doesn't come across well on a computer, but I don't think anyone here thinks a 412 as an Ab-Initio trainer is either practical, economical or safe...
VR
We would be more than willing to send EK to Sea Kings, maybe we can swap for you... <_< McQ is a great guy, but he doesn't get alot of help right now...
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407 don't misunderstand the 412 thing. All I mean is that it is a great opportunity for a young pilot low on experience if they can get into the Reserves and get an instrument rating and 412 endorsement when just getting a job is so hard to begin with when they only have a new licence.
Nothing, nothing will count for just plain old experience. For the young pilots I remember hiring they went on with the Reserves for upwards of 500 hours on the Griffon before venturing back out into the market to get jobs and most have been able to do so, many flying mediums or on IFR jobs.
100 hours will always be a 100 hours, the Reserves can just be a good way to help pilots get started and gain that experience. I have never professed and would never counsel a young aviator to head out with their minimal time and just that new endorsement. Most companies simply couldn't hire them anyhow due to insurance. They gain experience in the Reserves, several did tours in Bosnia and spent upwards of two or three years full time Reserve flying before hitting the streets again.
As for ab initio, I think we have 100% agreement on that one, if they ever do put "just" Griffons in Portage, that will end that program in a hurry....
Nothing, nothing will count for just plain old experience. For the young pilots I remember hiring they went on with the Reserves for upwards of 500 hours on the Griffon before venturing back out into the market to get jobs and most have been able to do so, many flying mediums or on IFR jobs.
100 hours will always be a 100 hours, the Reserves can just be a good way to help pilots get started and gain that experience. I have never professed and would never counsel a young aviator to head out with their minimal time and just that new endorsement. Most companies simply couldn't hire them anyhow due to insurance. They gain experience in the Reserves, several did tours in Bosnia and spent upwards of two or three years full time Reserve flying before hitting the streets again.
As for ab initio, I think we have 100% agreement on that one, if they ever do put "just" Griffons in Portage, that will end that program in a hurry....
