Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Gilding the Lily]

I guess Obama just was'nt feeling patriotic this day! :down:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

I guess Bush jr. wasn't feeling patriotic this day! :down:

US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Sec. 8 (g): "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

Now I don't think Bush isn't patriotic (it's been a good effort); I just use it to show that neglecting to follow suggested protocol doesn't mean you are necessarily unpatriotic.

 

[UAL_TECH]

I guess Bush jr. wasn't feeling patriotic this day! :down:

US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Sec. 8 (g): "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

Now I don't think Bush isn't patriotic; I just use it to show that neglecting to follow protocol doesn't mean you are necessarily unpatriotic.

If your point is that 'Bush' is an idiot, then there is no further comment from me. History speaks...😛
If your point is that Obama not respecting the flag and traditions of the country he wants to lead, then yes, I do have issues with this hypothesis.

Two wrongs do not make a right (sure you learned this earlier in life).

B) UT

 

[Gilding the Lily]

If your point is that 'Bush' is an idiot, then there is no further comment from me. History speaks...😛
If your point is that Obama not respecting the flag and traditions of the country he wants to lead, then yes, I do have issues with this hypothesis.

Two wrongs do not make a right (sure you learned this earlier in life).

B) UT

It shouldn't be too difficult to understand my point... it is spelled out for you (in english) in the previous post.

Do you know that the flag code also has sections that state that the flag should never be carried flat or horizontally? I am sure that we have been to enough football games where military members marched onto the field during half time, holding the flag flat and taut. Are the members of our military unpatriotic?

 

[UAL_TECH]

It shouldn't be too difficult to understand my point... it is spelled out for you (in english) in the previous post.

Good, answer a question with an euphemism.
Impressed I am......😛
B) UT

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Good, answer a question with an euphemism.
Impressed I am......😛
B) UT

You didn't ask a question in your previous post (see below for text of your post). I did, however, ask a question; One that you failed to answer.

You see, patriotism doesn't depend solely on whether you place your hand on your heart during a song. It depends on what is inside that heart. Is it poor-form... yes. Is it unpatriotic... it depends. It depends on your heart. Patriotism is loving your country, willing to sacrifice for it, and devotion and loyalty. It is not simply putting a pin on your lapel or placing your hand on your heart.

If your point is that 'Bush' is an idiot, then there is no further comment from me. History speaks...
If your point is that Obama not respecting the flag and traditions of the country he wants to lead, then yes, I do have issues with this hypothesis.

Two wrongs do not make a right (sure you learned this earlier in life).

 

[UAL_TECH]

It shouldn't be too difficult to understand my point... it is spelled out for you (in english) in the previous post.

Do you know that the flag code also has sections that state that the flag should never be carried flat or horizontally? I am sure that we have been to enough football games where military members marched onto the field during half time, holding the flag flat and taut. Are the members of our military unpatriotic?

Yes, I served on burial detail in Alabama, Georgia, and the Carolinas as an Honor Guard (1974/1975).
I can fold the ‘FLAG’ much better than you and understand the significance, so spare me your bullshit!!!
B) UT

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Yes, I served on burial detail in Alabama, Georgia, and the Carolinas as an Honor Guard (1974/1975).
I can fold the ‘FLAG’ much better than you and understand the significance, so spare me your bullshit!!!
B) UT

Yeah. I wasn't referring to burial detail. And I am not questioning your loyalty or patriotism; I do not even know you. But the fact that military members violate the flag code often during football games, parades, etc. (not burial duty) is enough to demonstrate that violating the flag code does not automatically make someone "unpatriotic" as some would suggest.

As a former member of the Honor Guard, I am sure that you can attest to the fact that patriotism is more than just putting your hand on your heart during the national anthem.

I would think military members would be offended if they were told that to be patriotic, you only had to place your hand on your heart during a song... that their service to our country had nothing to do with patriotism.

 

[UAL_TECH]

Yeah. I wasn't referring to burial detail. And I am not questioning your loyalty or patriotism; I do not even know you. But the fact that military members violate the flag code often during football games, parades, etc. (not burial duty) is enough to demonstrate that violating the flag code does not automatically make someone "unpatriotic" as some would suggest.

As a former member of the Honor Guard, I am sure that you can attest to the fact that patriotism is more than just putting your hand on your heart during the national anthem.

I would think military members would be offended if they were told that to be patriotic, you only had to place your hand on your heart during a song... that their service to our country had nothing to do with patriotism.

From your statement, I can only postulate that you are ignorant or a troll.
如此什么是您"真正地' trolling 为?

Either way, I brush your dust from my feet, but will monitor your posts.
B) UT

 

[Gilding the Lily]

From your statement, I can only postulate that you are ignorant or a troll.
如此什么是您"真正地' trolling 为?

Either way, I brush your dust from my feet, but will monitor your posts.
B) UT

Wow. I didn't intend for you to become defensive. It was meant as meaningful dialog.

Anyone else who is comfortable discussing the true form and meaning of patriotism, I welcome your response.

On a somewhat related note, back in the late 90's the University of Chicago did a study and found that Americans were the world's most patriotic people. Besides the obvious question of "how do you measure patriotism," do you think that patriotism has increased, decreased, or stayed the same in the 2000's?

Americans Are World's Most Patriotic People

 

[UAL_TECH]

Wow. I didn't intend for you to become defensive. It was meant as meaningful dialog.

Anyone else who is comfortable discussing the true form and meaning of patriotism, I welcome your response.

On a somewhat related note, back in the late 90's the University of Chicago did a study and found that Americans were the world's most patriotic people. Besides the obvious question of "how do you measure patriotism," do you think that patriotism has increased, decreased, or stayed the same in the 2000's?

Americans Are World's Most Patriotic People

Yes, I am 'very' sensitive to certain issues. To have a US presidential Candidate (Much less a Senator) not ‘respect’ the anthem is not debatable (for me).

On this ‘one’ issue alone, I will not vote for him, and furthermore, I will do my best to influence whomever I know and meet not to vote for him on this issue in and of itself. He is not a stupid person and mindfully decided to do this. He has an agenda that is also not forthcoming.

Indecisive debaters can conjugate the flag protocol, make excuses and point fingers but (for me) it is more than that.
I don’t expect ‘all’ to understand, only Americans.

Obama, here’s a kiss for YA:
View attachment 6768
B) UT

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Yes, I am 'very' sensitive to certain issues. To have a US presidential Candidate (Much less a Senator) not ‘respect’ the anthem is not debatable (for me).

On this ‘one’ issue alone, I will not vote for him, and furthermore, I will do my best to influence whomever I know and meet not to vote for him on this issue in and of itself. He is not a stupid person and mindfully decided to do this. He has an agenda that is also not forthcoming.

Indecisive debaters can conjugate the flag protocol, make excuses and point fingers but (for me) it is more than that.
I don’t expect ‘all’ to understand, only Americans.

Obama, here’s a kiss for YA:

B) UT

You are right in that there is no excuse for his poor form. It certainly was not becoming.

You also make a valid point in regards to intent... if he did, in fact, mindfully choose to not place his hand on his heart during the national anthem. That would distinguish it from military members who violate the standards of respect listed in the flag code at a football game, because they presumably disrespect the flag unknowingly.

 

[UAL_TECH]

You are right in that there is no excuse for his poor form. It certainly was not becoming.

You also make a valid point in regards to intent... if he did, in fact, mindfully choose to not place his hand on his heart during the national anthem. That would distinguish it from military members who violate the standards of respect listed in the flag code at a football game, because they presumably disrespect the flag unknowingly.

There you go again with your 'if he did' BullShit.

Since you continually remark of the military members whom violate the flag code, cut to the chase and give us this important information that will exonerate this bafoon because 'some one else did the same'.

B) UT

 

[Gilding the Lily]

There you go again with your 'if he did' BullShit.

Since you continually remark of the military members whom violate the flag code, cut to the chase and give us this important information that will exonerate this bafoon because 'some one else did the same'.

B) UT

Too funny. You know, rage and anger can often cloud judgment.

If you would read the posts instead of getting angry at that fact that I "replied" to your post, you would see that it says: THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

I am not trying to exonerate him. There is no defending that he violated protocol during the national anthem (it is on video).

What is debatable, however, is whether this act signifies an unpatriotic man. You say it does, and I say not necessarily. It is obvious that you do not like him and find him to be unpatriotic. But are those thoughts based solely on this one incident?

If so, your strict and petty standard for patriotism should be applied in the same way to all members of the community! According to such a standard, if you violate flag protocol, you are not longer patriotic (or never were). But like I said earlier, there is nothing magical about putting your hand over your heart. I am not saying that people should neglect that part, but that is not what makes you patriotic, it is something much deeper.

Is there something besides this one incidient that makes you question his patriotism?

Lastly, though some media outlets tried their hardest, the media sensationalism did not work with this story and there was not much popular rage. It is likely because most people in this country have been to a ball game or two and saw half the stadium without their hand on their heart during the anthem. Some of them may have been drinking beer or talking, or looking for their seats. Violating the code: Yes! Poor form: Yes! Not patriotic: Maybe, but not necessarily. Most people in this country wouldn't send someone to "Unpatriotic Land" simply because he violated protocol, without anything else.



*** I briefly viewed my posts in this thread; I never mentioned anything similar to "if he did" except in the very last post. Don't know where you got all those other "if he did" from.

 

[Garfield1966]

I have always found it amusing how people can place so much emphasis on a symbol and also be willing to go against everything the symbol stands for to defend if. To each their own I guess.

 

[local 12 proud]

I have always found it amusing how people can place so much emphasis on a symbol and also be willing to go against everything the symbol stands for to defend if. To each their own I guess.

Yes we already know your idea of defense! <_<