KCFlyer
Veteran
I don't think ELP means YOU are having fun. Mr. McDaniel on the other hand is most likely enjoying himself immensly. Has he gotten a raise in the past two years, or did someone else bargain for him there?
Southwest Ceo Lands In Hot Seat
- Thread starter Doc
- Start date
I don't think ELP means YOU are having fun. Mr. McDaniel on the other hand is most likely enjoying himself immensly. Has he gotten a raise in the past two years, or did someone else bargain for him there?
It looks like every time unions get involved and start demanding airlines get into trouble.
When the demands are unreasonable....you bet. Now if could only settle on a mutually acceptable definition of reasonable.
A proposal should be voted on. A tentative agreement requires that the union members should have had the opportunity to vote on it and to discuss it among them self and by agreeing on it making it a tentative agreement that can be converted into an agreement.
That is not how this local does things. Both sides understoodthat when they stepped to the table back in 2002. If we are going to break with protocal and vote on proposals...we gotta vote on both of em. The company's and the unions side by side.
How well are you of today without a “contract� Are you any worth off than before 9/11?
We have a contract. The current contract remains in effect until a new one ratified and even the company has offered retro pay.
There are so many people out there who are desperately looking for a job that would get them out of unemployment.
They have my sympathy and if some people have their way I will soon be joining them.
Ask them how good you have it and how good the offer is.
I understand the "any job is better than no job" mentality. I have been there before. The offer looks good to everyone except for the people that will have to work under it and get to vote on it.
Just demanding and demanding and demanding is not going to help you, the airline, the passengers and the economy.
That impact on these negotiations on me and Southwest remains to be seen. The economy seems to be humming along pretty well on it's own.
We are living in a very different world today. The good old times are over and it is very cold out there.
Different world yes. I say that to myself while I am crawling around on the the airplane looking for box cutters and "profiling" suspicious passengers. When I first started this job worst case scenario was a plane crash. Now I have to go to work everyday and worry about getting my throat slashed. You better believe it is a different world.
As for the good times...I don't know. Traffic is up. Continental is looking pretty solid. NW and AA are on the mend. DL is struggling but they are doing better than US. HP and AS are staying the course. The other LCCs are making money. We're not all printing money like we were back in the 90s but we're not breaking up the office furniture for firewood either.
Is there any of the big name airlines where FA’s are happy.
Let's see I know United and US are not too thrilled right now. But, Delta's Flight Attendants have repeatedly resisted efforts to organize. They must be doing something right over there. American and Northwest are pretty quiet right now....I don't know how "happy" they are but they seem to have found a middle grouond with their employers. Beyond that, I don't know...I don't work there. I work here. For now.
And it always the management the unions say. It might be that the unions are promising you greener pastures on the other side, fully aware that there are non and you follow them because you don’t see the green pasture because you are actually standing on them.
I trust my ability to recognize a bill of good when someone is attempting to sell me one. When that happens, I will be the first and the loudest to cry foul.
Don’t just think of your self. Think of every one @ WN.
The rest of Southwest will be just fine. When the flight attendants get too rowdy and Jim Parker decides he has had enough he will fire us and replace us. I have heard all kinds of wild stories about mass hiring events at stadiums and 3 day training classes. If the company can time it right, they might be able to lock us out right around the time US folds....problem solved. But fear not. The integrity of the company will be protected at all cost. That is Jim Parker's job and I have every confidence that when the time comes he will do it and do it with dispatch. For all the internals out there thinking about inflight...now might be the time to get your points down...your big chance could be right around the corner.
The FA’s are only one part of the company. And one rotten apple can spoil the complete basket.
Funny, I never thought of myself as a "rotten apple". But if that is what this has come to, I can accpet that. I've been called worse.
Once you get what you want every one is going to add to it and trying to top it and at the end WN is going to find it self in the same position like UA/US/AA/DL etc. etc. etc. fighting to survive because the unions don’t realize that there is a time to ask and receive and a time to just be cooperative and let it go or maybe give.
Don't worry. Big Jim ain't gonna cave. He has made that quite clear. I'll be packing groceries at the Piggly Wiggly long before the LUV stock has lost so much as a point because of overpaid flight attendants.
What is more important to you, a secure job or more money and an un-secure job?
Being treated fairly by the company I work for is most important for me. At the rate I'm going I think I am going to have to start my own business. "SWAFA30 Inc." I kinda like the sound that.
At the end someone has to pay for it and it might be you because your job has been eliminated!
At the risk of repeating myself. There was life before SWA. I don't doubt there will be life after SWA.
So think twice what you wish for, you might get it and don’t like it.
Like my Daddy used to say. I'll cross that git when I git to it.
There are more people in a company that want more but are realistic enough to know what is good and healthy.
In the grand scheme of things, this has to happen. SWA is the most unionized airline in the industry. Were if not this union now, it would be another one later. The other unions are watching...closely. When those unions see Jim Parker put 7,000 people on the street they will fall in line right quick.
When the demands are unreasonable....you bet. Now if could only settle on a mutually acceptable definition of reasonable.
A proposal should be voted on. A tentative agreement requires that the union members should have had the opportunity to vote on it and to discuss it among them self and by agreeing on it making it a tentative agreement that can be converted into an agreement.
That is not how this local does things. Both sides understoodthat when they stepped to the table back in 2002. If we are going to break with protocal and vote on proposals...we gotta vote on both of em. The company's and the unions side by side.
How well are you of today without a “contract� Are you any worth off than before 9/11?
We have a contract. The current contract remains in effect until a new one ratified and even the company has offered retro pay.
There are so many people out there who are desperately looking for a job that would get them out of unemployment.
They have my sympathy and if some people have their way I will soon be joining them.
Ask them how good you have it and how good the offer is.
I understand the "any job is better than no job" mentality. I have been there before. The offer looks good to everyone except for the people that will have to work under it and get to vote on it.
Just demanding and demanding and demanding is not going to help you, the airline, the passengers and the economy.
That impact on these negotiations on me and Southwest remains to be seen. The economy seems to be humming along pretty well on it's own.
We are living in a very different world today. The good old times are over and it is very cold out there.
Different world yes. I say that to myself while I am crawling around on the the airplane looking for box cutters and "profiling" suspicious passengers. When I first started this job worst case scenario was a plane crash. Now I have to go to work everyday and worry about getting my throat slashed. You better believe it is a different world.
As for the good times...I don't know. Traffic is up. Continental is looking pretty solid. NW and AA are on the mend. DL is struggling but they are doing better than US. HP and AS are staying the course. The other LCCs are making money. We're not all printing money like we were back in the 90s but we're not breaking up the office furniture for firewood either.
Is there any of the big name airlines where FA’s are happy.
Let's see I know United and US are not too thrilled right now. But, Delta's Flight Attendants have repeatedly resisted efforts to organize. They must be doing something right over there. American and Northwest are pretty quiet right now....I don't know how "happy" they are but they seem to have found a middle grouond with their employers. Beyond that, I don't know...I don't work there. I work here. For now.
And it always the management the unions say. It might be that the unions are promising you greener pastures on the other side, fully aware that there are non and you follow them because you don’t see the green pasture because you are actually standing on them.
I trust my ability to recognize a bill of good when someone is attempting to sell me one. When that happens, I will be the first and the loudest to cry foul.
Don’t just think of your self. Think of every one @ WN.
The rest of Southwest will be just fine. When the flight attendants get too rowdy and Jim Parker decides he has had enough he will fire us and replace us. I have heard all kinds of wild stories about mass hiring events at stadiums and 3 day training classes. If the company can time it right, they might be able to lock us out right around the time US folds....problem solved. But fear not. The integrity of the company will be protected at all cost. That is Jim Parker's job and I have every confidence that when the time comes he will do it and do it with dispatch. For all the internals out there thinking about inflight...now might be the time to get your points down...your big chance could be right around the corner.
The FA’s are only one part of the company. And one rotten apple can spoil the complete basket.
Funny, I never thought of myself as a "rotten apple". But if that is what this has come to, I can accpet that. I've been called worse.
Once you get what you want every one is going to add to it and trying to top it and at the end WN is going to find it self in the same position like UA/US/AA/DL etc. etc. etc. fighting to survive because the unions don’t realize that there is a time to ask and receive and a time to just be cooperative and let it go or maybe give.
Don't worry. Big Jim ain't gonna cave. He has made that quite clear. I'll be packing groceries at the Piggly Wiggly long before the LUV stock has lost so much as a point because of overpaid flight attendants.
What is more important to you, a secure job or more money and an un-secure job?
Being treated fairly by the company I work for is most important for me. At the rate I'm going I think I am going to have to start my own business. "SWAFA30 Inc." I kinda like the sound that.
At the end someone has to pay for it and it might be you because your job has been eliminated!
At the risk of repeating myself. There was life before SWA. I don't doubt there will be life after SWA.
So think twice what you wish for, you might get it and don’t like it.
Like my Daddy used to say. I'll cross that git when I git to it.
There are more people in a company that want more but are realistic enough to know what is good and healthy.
In the grand scheme of things, this has to happen. SWA is the most unionized airline in the industry. Were if not this union now, it would be another one later. The other unions are watching...closely. When those unions see Jim Parker put 7,000 people on the street they will fall in line right quick.
JS
Veteran
SWAFA30, if you're so miserable, why don't you quit? For crying out loud, if you're willing to sack groceries at the Piggly Wiggly, you must really hate your job.
Two days ago I was on a SkyWest flight from DFW to COS. On the back of the snack bag it says that SkyWest is hiring. I have no idea what kind of pay SkyWest flight attendants get, but the flight attendant on my flight was very nice and professional. According to union propoganda, she must have been making $250 an hour to be so cheerful and happy to give me a second cup of coffee.
Two days ago I was on a SkyWest flight from DFW to COS. On the back of the snack bag it says that SkyWest is hiring. I have no idea what kind of pay SkyWest flight attendants get, but the flight attendant on my flight was very nice and professional. According to union propoganda, she must have been making $250 an hour to be so cheerful and happy to give me a second cup of coffee.
SWAFA30, if you're so miserable, why don't you quit? For crying out loud, if you're willing to sack groceries at the Piggly Wiggly, you must really hate your job.
Might seem that way but, in reality nothing could be further from the truth. Well...not nothing...that's a pretty sweeping generalization. Let's just say I don't hate my job and leave it at that. Some say the negativity that has enveloped these negotiations is the fault of my union leadership. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're not. Regardless of who is at fault the negativity that now permeates Inflight Service at this time is inescapable. Osmosis is a powerful force of nature. I'm not miserable. Just resigned.
Two days ago I was on a SkyWest flight from DFW to COS. On the back of the snack bag it says that SkyWest is hiring. I have no idea what kind of pay SkyWest flight attendants get, but the flight attendant on my flight was very nice and professional. According to union propoganda, she must have been making $250 an hour to be so cheerful and happy to give me a second cup of coffee
In a prior post I stated that the flight attendants at SWA have kept this unpleasantness "out of the cabin" and I stand by that statement. There are over seven thousand of us out on the flight line so I cannot definitively say that none of us have taken our discontent out on our customer. However, there are several long-time SWA frequent fliers that post on this board whose opinions I trust, KC and ELP just to name two. If they had taken flights where the crews did not meet at least minimum standards...we would have heard about it by now.
The NT has told us repeatedly that if our goal is to convince the company of our value to the operation...slacking off on our service is not the way to accomplish that goal. While this little drama we find ourselves in plays out...corny jokes are still being told, the Barney song is still being sung and seconds are still being poured. Overall, I expect it will be business as usual in the cabin until this is over one way or the other.
Might seem that way but, in reality nothing could be further from the truth. Well...not nothing...that's a pretty sweeping generalization. Let's just say I don't hate my job and leave it at that. Some say the negativity that has enveloped these negotiations is the fault of my union leadership. Maybe they're right. Maybe they're not. Regardless of who is at fault the negativity that now permeates Inflight Service at this time is inescapable. Osmosis is a powerful force of nature. I'm not miserable. Just resigned.
Two days ago I was on a SkyWest flight from DFW to COS. On the back of the snack bag it says that SkyWest is hiring. I have no idea what kind of pay SkyWest flight attendants get, but the flight attendant on my flight was very nice and professional. According to union propoganda, she must have been making $250 an hour to be so cheerful and happy to give me a second cup of coffee
In a prior post I stated that the flight attendants at SWA have kept this unpleasantness "out of the cabin" and I stand by that statement. There are over seven thousand of us out on the flight line so I cannot definitively say that none of us have taken our discontent out on our customer. However, there are several long-time SWA frequent fliers that post on this board whose opinions I trust, KC and ELP just to name two. If they had taken flights where the crews did not meet at least minimum standards...we would have heard about it by now.
The NT has told us repeatedly that if our goal is to convince the company of our value to the operation...slacking off on our service is not the way to accomplish that goal. While this little drama we find ourselves in plays out...corny jokes are still being told, the Barney song is still being sung and seconds are still being poured. Overall, I expect it will be business as usual in the cabin until this is over one way or the other.
KCFlyer
Veteran
I do have to agree with you here. I've had several flights over the past year, and I have not noticed in "communication of displeasure" to the passengers on the aircraft. In particular, I was on a flight from MCI-FLL a few weeks ago over spring break. The FA was wearing a TWU556 pin on her collar, so I pretty much knew where she stood. But her demeanor on the flight was superb...witty without being overdone, and she provided truly "legendary" service. As I deplaned, I told her that while I did question some things about their negotiations, I wished her well, and hoped that they'd have a contract soon. She thanked me. Service on the return flights was again, top notch. So based on my admittedly limited observance, I'd say that SWAFA30 is correct in saying that the sentiment is being kept out of the cabin.
swflyer
Senior
KC, ELP and all,
Let me try another explanation as to why we aren't willing to vote on a "proposal".
In spite of the Union presenting economic data showing the truly low cost of it's compensation package, Mr. Parker's assertion that the Union's data lacked all inputs, and his inability to present any other data to refute the Union's package, Jim is calling his "proposal" the Company's "Best and Final offer". (hope you followed that)
Were the Union to take Jim's "proposal" to the membership, it would be acknowledging/accepting Jim Parker's ceiling for compensation (remember again, that the Union has shown the Company can afford what it's asking for). The Union's compensation package is the result of research that included imput from the Membership, so acknowledging Jim's ceiling, would breach the Union's duty to the Membership.
When the Membership voted down this offer, which we are already fully knowledgable of, thanks to the information placed on the mySWA website and in our mailboxes at work (both Company and Union), Jim would be in the powerful position of playing the victim. He could now offer a little more to the section of the membership he now knew just needed a little more money, out of the "Goodness of his heart" or "As his duty and the CEO of Culture", or "Because The Best Flight Attendants in the Industry deserve the VERY best".
If this play sounds familiar, it is what happened in 1996.
The Union's Negotiating Team was charged with doing the Very Best by their Membership, which includes keeping Southwest Airlines healthy. I don't have any desire to be employed anywhere else. I love my job. I want the leader of our Company to do the right thing by his employees, and believe he's been shown a reasonable path to that goal.
I will wait, because I believe it's worth it. I am VERY disappointed in the tactics I see on the Management side of the equation, and disagree with your characterization of Thom McDaniel.
I'm sure we'll be able to agree to disagree.
Let me try another explanation as to why we aren't willing to vote on a "proposal".
In spite of the Union presenting economic data showing the truly low cost of it's compensation package, Mr. Parker's assertion that the Union's data lacked all inputs, and his inability to present any other data to refute the Union's package, Jim is calling his "proposal" the Company's "Best and Final offer". (hope you followed that)
Were the Union to take Jim's "proposal" to the membership, it would be acknowledging/accepting Jim Parker's ceiling for compensation (remember again, that the Union has shown the Company can afford what it's asking for). The Union's compensation package is the result of research that included imput from the Membership, so acknowledging Jim's ceiling, would breach the Union's duty to the Membership.
When the Membership voted down this offer, which we are already fully knowledgable of, thanks to the information placed on the mySWA website and in our mailboxes at work (both Company and Union), Jim would be in the powerful position of playing the victim. He could now offer a little more to the section of the membership he now knew just needed a little more money, out of the "Goodness of his heart" or "As his duty and the CEO of Culture", or "Because The Best Flight Attendants in the Industry deserve the VERY best".
If this play sounds familiar, it is what happened in 1996.
The Union's Negotiating Team was charged with doing the Very Best by their Membership, which includes keeping Southwest Airlines healthy. I don't have any desire to be employed anywhere else. I love my job. I want the leader of our Company to do the right thing by his employees, and believe he's been shown a reasonable path to that goal.
I will wait, because I believe it's worth it. I am VERY disappointed in the tactics I see on the Management side of the equation, and disagree with your characterization of Thom McDaniel.
I'm sure we'll be able to agree to disagree.
KCFlyer
Veteran
SWFlyer - true, we can agree to disagree...but what ELP and myself have been trying to say is that the latest (Forbes) where representatives are portraying Parker as the "man who demolished the house that Herb built"...Herb is still very much a presence down at the offices. If he felt Parker was doing a poor job, he would have intervened. His silence implies that Parker still has his backing. So if the media is to be a "strategic" partner in the negotiations, they'd best be painting Herb as the ogre as well.
Also, check your PM's for restaurant options in KC.
Also, check your PM's for restaurant options in KC.
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