According to the brief report I heard, the committee found examples of airlines hiding various fees in categories other than the specific reason for the fee--I guess making a fee, bag for instance, appear to be something else, like an airport security fee.
SWA will remain ONLY airline to not charge for bags
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WorldTraveler
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I suppose that is possible, jim, but government and carrier imposed fees and taxes are pretty easy to differentiate at every step in the process.
further, all of this furor about ancillary fees belies the fact that business people would be hurt by a unified fare structure that makes everyone pay for services that only a few use.
The outrage is really because a few people are being asked to pay for services which they want but others don't want or use.
and, yes, baggage fees are a higher percentage of a cheap discount ticket to the beach than it is for a business meeting.
further, all of this furor about ancillary fees belies the fact that business people would be hurt by a unified fare structure that makes everyone pay for services that only a few use.
The outrage is really because a few people are being asked to pay for services which they want but others don't want or use.
and, yes, baggage fees are a higher percentage of a cheap discount ticket to the beach than it is for a business meeting.
SharoninSAT
Veteran
WorldTraveler said:
Delta is having trouble both differentiating and disclosing information about their bag fees.WorldTraveler said:
Delta Fined $2.7 Million for Tardy Response in Lawsuit Over Bag Fees
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/delta-fined-2-7-million-tardy-response-lawsuit-over-bag-n405361
http://www.flyertalk.com/articles/delta-fined-another-2-7m-for-continuing-to-drag-their-feet-in-2009-lawsuit-over-bag-fees.html
http://www.law360.com/articles/686876/delta-sanctioned-3m-for-ineptitude-in-bag-fee-mdl
Delta Air Lines Inc. was ordered Monday to pay $2.7 million in fees for its ineptitude and missteps in withholding documents from plaintiffs in a baggage fee-fixing multidistrict litigation, when a Georgia federal judge increased a special masters recommended sanction over 45 percent.
WorldTraveler
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the lawsuit has nothing to do with consumer disclosures.
and despite the fact that you seem to ignore the fact that WN's DNA includes a lot of AirTran''s, the lawsuit is against both DL and FL, and thus WN.
specific to THIS discussion, it is amazing that the majority of WN employees who have weighed in here do not expect that WN will retain its 2 free bags policy for the long-term despite the fact that WN corporate says they will. I don't suppose the people on here are alone among WN employees and it shows how much WN employees deep down really want the policy changed.
Domestic passengers - the kind that WN flies are more than capable of carrying a significant part of the luggage which they check onboard the aircraft and WN's US competitors all fly the same 737s that have the capability to carry hundreds of bags.
Given the amount of extra work the "baggage fees included in your ticket price" policy causes WN employees, it isn't terribly surprising that WN employees don't support WN mgmt. on continuing free bags for the long term.
Finally, it needs to be remembered that baggage charges for the big 3 and all US airlines include their ENTIRE networks. I don't believe there is any public data how much of that is for international baggage but it is a given that a significant portion is for int'l bags so comparing what WN and the big 3 collect in baggage fees isn't even an accurate comparison.
and despite the fact that you seem to ignore the fact that WN's DNA includes a lot of AirTran''s, the lawsuit is against both DL and FL, and thus WN.
specific to THIS discussion, it is amazing that the majority of WN employees who have weighed in here do not expect that WN will retain its 2 free bags policy for the long-term despite the fact that WN corporate says they will. I don't suppose the people on here are alone among WN employees and it shows how much WN employees deep down really want the policy changed.
Domestic passengers - the kind that WN flies are more than capable of carrying a significant part of the luggage which they check onboard the aircraft and WN's US competitors all fly the same 737s that have the capability to carry hundreds of bags.
Given the amount of extra work the "baggage fees included in your ticket price" policy causes WN employees, it isn't terribly surprising that WN employees don't support WN mgmt. on continuing free bags for the long term.
Finally, it needs to be remembered that baggage charges for the big 3 and all US airlines include their ENTIRE networks. I don't believe there is any public data how much of that is for international baggage but it is a given that a significant portion is for int'l bags so comparing what WN and the big 3 collect in baggage fees isn't even an accurate comparison.
That's just it. It's all fine, well and good for those of us in the airline business to say that fees and taxes are "pretty easy to differentiate at every step in the process." However, when a Congressional committee issues a report that finds that airlines (and no, I do not know if there are specific airlines or just the airline industry in general) deliberately hid or misrepresented fees and taxes and other charges, WT, you need to go up to D.C and tell the member of the committee that they are wrong. That their findings of fraud, misrepresentation, withholding documents, etc are just plain erroneous. I'm sure they'll withdraw the report immediately.
I never said it did.WorldTraveler said:
I said information about their bag fees.
The plaintiffs are seeking information in connection with bag fees.
"Delta Air Lines Inc. was ordered Monday to pay $2.7 million in fees for its ineptitude and missteps in withholding documents..."
I don't see WN or AirTran being fined for withholding documents in this case.
WorldTraveler
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I'm actually pretty comfortable, jim, that AA, DL, and UA are all more than capable of providing feedback about what the government is seeing.
I also am quite certain that every one of the legacy airlines is more than capable of and has a very good track record of properly identifying government fees.
I can't say the same thing about the ULCCs but I can't say that they couldn't get it right either.
I'm simply saying that I doubt that the legacy carriers - any and all of them - are responsible for confusing mixing government imposed taxes and carrier imposed fees.
if there is more detail that shows where the problem is, I'd love to see it.
wnmech,
the LAWSUIT is against FL (and thus WN) and DL about potential collusion in the ATL market regarding imposing bag fees.
DL was fined by the court for failing to deliver the documents the court wanted. it has nothing to do with disclosing but rather delivering documents to the court.
I also am quite certain that every one of the legacy airlines is more than capable of and has a very good track record of properly identifying government fees.
I can't say the same thing about the ULCCs but I can't say that they couldn't get it right either.
I'm simply saying that I doubt that the legacy carriers - any and all of them - are responsible for confusing mixing government imposed taxes and carrier imposed fees.
if there is more detail that shows where the problem is, I'd love to see it.
wnmech,
the LAWSUIT is against FL (and thus WN) and DL about potential collusion in the ATL market regarding imposing bag fees.
DL was fined by the court for failing to deliver the documents the court wanted. it has nothing to do with disclosing but rather delivering documents to the court.
eolesen
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I'll concede that it's not always simple to figure out the fees involved, be it checked bags, change fees, etc. WHEN the customer books direct with the airline.jimntx said:
When you go thru a travel agency, it's usually a little more transparent.
I'm not a fan of agencies by any means, but for Ma & Pa Kettle, they probably would be better off having someone navigate the morass of fine print for them...
Actually E, I don't think the average leisure flyer cares much how the final ticket price is derived. Their only concern is "can I afford to go or not." I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they decided not to go because the airport facilities use fee was too high, or the state airport development fund tax was way out of line, or that they cancelled their plans because they couldn't understand the components of the ticket price.
At the same time, I don't think a Congressional committee would fabricate findings of an investigation. Overstate the importance of a particular set of facts, you bet. But, make up stuff? No. There's at least a little bit of fire if there is enough smoke to warrant publishing a finding. Which by the way, I'm still trying to locate on the Internet. I'm fairly certain I didn't hallucinate what I heard on the tv news the other day.
At the same time, I don't think a Congressional committee would fabricate findings of an investigation. Overstate the importance of a particular set of facts, you bet. But, make up stuff? No. There's at least a little bit of fire if there is enough smoke to warrant publishing a finding. Which by the way, I'm still trying to locate on the Internet. I'm fairly certain I didn't hallucinate what I heard on the tv news the other day.
WorldTraveler
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that's simply not true, E. There is a page with baggage fees for every airline that is linked directly to the booking process and also explained during the booking process.
here is aa's http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/baggage/main.jsp?anchorEvent=false&from=Nav
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/baggage.html
http://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/baggage/default.aspx
just as an example, UA's contains this text at the beginning of the itinerary search with hyperlinks for details.
"Fares listed are for the entire trip per person and include taxes and fees. Additional bag charges may apply.
"The fare displayed is the lowest available for the dates requested; however some flights may not be in the cabin you requested.
"United flights include those operated by our Express partners."
other carriers have similar disclosures.
here is a page from DL regarding onboard services and the types of products by cabin
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/onboard-experience/main-cabin.html
including
"Like the extra room of the exit row? Or prefer an aisle seat toward the front? Preferred Seats give you the choice of an aisle or window seat toward the front of the plane, as well as bulkhead and emergency exit row seats. Medallion® members can select Preferred Seats for no additional charge.'
along with this page specifically for Basic Economy, DL's most basic product which could incur the greatest amount of fees if a passenger chooses to "buy up" to other services.
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/support/faqs/planning-reservations-faqs.html#BasicEcon
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/onboard-experience/main-cabin.html
I'm not going thru the ULCCs but the big 3 ALL have very clear disclosures about what is included in the price and what is not. I have looked at Spirit's website enough to know that they disclose what is included and what is not.
The government's problem is that they want it all included because some consumers don't want to bother to read.... and yet virtually every type of business has some degree of unbundling from home internet and phone service to different shipping speeds for internet shopping. Rental cars and Megabus all follow a similar unbundled pricing model - you pick and pay for what you want.
Bundled pricing might be what some companies want to use for marketing purposes but it is not the norm for most industries.
and the legacy airlines at least all do a pretty good job of disclosing what is included and what is not.
Of course, the irony is that the government won't allow airlines to show the fare WITHOUT taxes so that consumers can see how much of the price of their ticket price is in taxes even though that is exactly the way most other purposes are made on the internet.
If the government is so interested in FAIR FARE disclosure, allow the airlines to reveal to passengers how much of their ticket price is government taxes - it is FAR larger than the add on fees that airlines impose for the vast majority of passengers.
here is aa's http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/baggage/main.jsp?anchorEvent=false&from=Nav
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/baggage.html
http://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/baggage/default.aspx
just as an example, UA's contains this text at the beginning of the itinerary search with hyperlinks for details.
"Fares listed are for the entire trip per person and include taxes and fees. Additional bag charges may apply.
"The fare displayed is the lowest available for the dates requested; however some flights may not be in the cabin you requested.
"United flights include those operated by our Express partners."
other carriers have similar disclosures.
here is a page from DL regarding onboard services and the types of products by cabin
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/onboard-experience/main-cabin.html
including
"Like the extra room of the exit row? Or prefer an aisle seat toward the front? Preferred Seats give you the choice of an aisle or window seat toward the front of the plane, as well as bulkhead and emergency exit row seats. Medallion® members can select Preferred Seats for no additional charge.'
along with this page specifically for Basic Economy, DL's most basic product which could incur the greatest amount of fees if a passenger chooses to "buy up" to other services.
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/support/faqs/planning-reservations-faqs.html#BasicEcon
http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US/traveling-with-us/onboard-experience/main-cabin.html
I'm not going thru the ULCCs but the big 3 ALL have very clear disclosures about what is included in the price and what is not. I have looked at Spirit's website enough to know that they disclose what is included and what is not.
The government's problem is that they want it all included because some consumers don't want to bother to read.... and yet virtually every type of business has some degree of unbundling from home internet and phone service to different shipping speeds for internet shopping. Rental cars and Megabus all follow a similar unbundled pricing model - you pick and pay for what you want.
Bundled pricing might be what some companies want to use for marketing purposes but it is not the norm for most industries.
and the legacy airlines at least all do a pretty good job of disclosing what is included and what is not.
Of course, the irony is that the government won't allow airlines to show the fare WITHOUT taxes so that consumers can see how much of the price of their ticket price is in taxes even though that is exactly the way most other purposes are made on the internet.
If the government is so interested in FAIR FARE disclosure, allow the airlines to reveal to passengers how much of their ticket price is government taxes - it is FAR larger than the add on fees that airlines impose for the vast majority of passengers.
Kev3188
Veteran
As both an employee and a shareholder in DL, I find those missteps disappointing.WNMECH said:
E's point is valid, but at the same time, I've never really heard anyone talking about PFCs and the like, either...jimntx said:
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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here's what Airlines For America shows how a $300 ticket is taxed at the rate of 21% which is really 26% of the fare. Virtually no other industry in the US is taxed at a rate that high.
Sample Round-Trip Itinerary Sold March 30, 2015: Peoria (PIA) – Raleigh/Durham (RDU) via Chicago O’Hare (ORD)
Base Airline Fare $237.02
: Federal Ticket (Excise) Tax (7.5%) 17.78
: Passenger Facility Charge (PIA) 4.50
: Federal Security Surcharge (PIA-RDU) 5.60
: Federal Flight Segment Tax (PIA-ORD) 4.00
: Passenger Facility Charge (ORD) 4.50
: Federal Flight Segment
Consists of a flight with a single takeoff and a single landing. A nonstop flight from New York to Chicago...Continue Reading | Full Glossary
Tax (ORD-RDU) 4.00
: Passenger Facility Charge (RDU) 4.50
: Federal Security Surcharge (RDU-PIA) 5.60
: Federal Flight Segment Tax (RDU-ORD) 4.00
: Passenger Facility Charge (ORD) 4.50
: Federal Flight Segment Tax (ORD-PIA) 4.00
Total Taxes 62.98
Total Ticket (Fare + Taxes) $300.00
Taxes as % of Fare 26.6%
Taxes as % of Ticket 21.0%
http://airlines.org/data/government-imposed-taxes-on-air-transportation/
Sample Round-Trip Itinerary Sold March 30, 2015: Peoria (PIA) – Raleigh/Durham (RDU) via Chicago O’Hare (ORD)
Base Airline Fare $237.02
: Federal Ticket (Excise) Tax (7.5%) 17.78
: Passenger Facility Charge (PIA) 4.50
: Federal Security Surcharge (PIA-RDU) 5.60
: Federal Flight Segment Tax (PIA-ORD) 4.00
: Passenger Facility Charge (ORD) 4.50
: Federal Flight Segment
Consists of a flight with a single takeoff and a single landing. A nonstop flight from New York to Chicago...Continue Reading | Full Glossary
Tax (ORD-RDU) 4.00
: Passenger Facility Charge (RDU) 4.50
: Federal Security Surcharge (RDU-PIA) 5.60
: Federal Flight Segment Tax (RDU-ORD) 4.00
: Passenger Facility Charge (ORD) 4.50
: Federal Flight Segment Tax (ORD-PIA) 4.00
Total Taxes 62.98
Total Ticket (Fare + Taxes) $300.00
Taxes as % of Fare 26.6%
Taxes as % of Ticket 21.0%
http://airlines.org/data/government-imposed-taxes-on-air-transportation/
Kev3188
Veteran
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