The changing rules of union certification

[Delta Technician]

I would have no qualms with a revised decertifying process, but would want it held under a "straight" vote (like certification).

I also would like to see the AFL-CIO "no raid" clause become a thing of the past.

Get interesting? It already is...

A revised decertifying process? Is there a decertifying process? The decertifying process should include completely doing away with union representation. Not changing from one union to another. This process should include the same procedure, %50 +1 of ballots cast. Yes you would have qualms.

 

[bullterrier]

I would have no qualms with a revised decertifying process, but would want it held under a "straight" vote (like certification).

I also would like to see the AFL-CIO "no raid" clause become a thing of the past.

Get interesting? It already is...

The decertification process should include completely getting rid of union representation at a 50% +1 of ballots cast. This would only be fair. That could really get interesting.

 

[Kev3188]

A revised decertifying process? Is there a decertifying process?

Yes.

The decertifying process should include completely doing away with union representation. Not changing from one union to another.

I know; I assumed that was what you were talking about?

Yes you would have qualms.

Actually, no I wouldn't. It would mean labor unions would have to be engaged & effective in order to stay in place.

 

[bullterrier]

Yes.




I know; I assumed that was what you were talking about?
Actually, no I wouldn't. It would mean labor unions would have to be engaged & effective in order to stay in place.

The NMB will really open up a huge can of worms should they choose to change the way a union is voted in and only be for airlines and railways. I say let it happen regardless and see what happens. It is nothing to go online and click.

 

[Airlinelifer]

A revised decertifying process? Is there a decertifying process? The decertifying process should include completely doing away with union representation. Not changing from one union to another. This process should include the same procedure, %50 +1 of ballots cast. Yes you would have qualms.

Another Delta employee that has no reason to butt in on union representation.
Are you a Flight Attenedent or work in ACS? NO,,, so what do you care about other departments organizing? ALPA and PAFCA ok with you?

Stick with the radios you need to attend to.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes. [in response to the question "Is there a decertifying process" - Jim

Kev,

Even the NMB admits that there is no process for decertifying a union under current RLA rules. I assume that you're referring to having a "strawman" opponent to the existing union which would voluntarily relinquish their status once certified as the new CBA. No union is going to spend the money/time on the representational process to accomplish nothing other than getting another union voted out. That leaves the employees to take the steps and spend the money necessary to secure and win a representational election. Not impossible, but certainly improbable given the resources/organization of the existing CBA.

Jim

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Kev,

Even the NMB admits that there is no process for decertifying a union under current RLA rules. I assume that you're referring to having a "strawman" opponent to the existing union which would voluntarily relinquish their status once certified as the new CBA. No union is going to spend the money/time on the representational process to accomplish nothing other than getting another union voted out. That leaves the employees to take the steps and spend the money necessary to secure and win a representational election. Not impossible, but certainly improbable given the resources/organization of the existing CBA.

Jim

This subject came up on NW/DL AFA Facebook site and was answered by one of their members:

If railway and airline employees want to get rid of a union, a majority of the employees in that union sign cards authorizing an employee in that group to serve as their representative. That employee then files an application for "Investigation of Representational Dispute" with the NMB.

An election would be called by the NMB. The election would be between the union and the independent employee that the others designated as their representative. If the independent wins, they can get rid of the contract entirely or just the forced unionism clause.

The case that established the right of railway and airline employees to do this was Russell v. NMB in 1983.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Luke,

Yes, that's the "strawman" method. What is omitted is any discussion of the expense and time involved in utilizing that method. A "strawman" organization or individual can not just file an "Investigation of Representational Dispute" application but must distribute, collect, and submit authorization cards.

The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. How many unions have been tossed of the property under the NMB using the "strawman" method? I can think of none.

Jim

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Luke,

Yes, that's the "strawman" method. What is omitted is any discussion of the expense and time involved in utilizing that method. A "strawman" organization or individual can not just file an "Investigation of Representational Dispute" application but must distribute, collect, and submit authorization cards.

The proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. How many unions have been tossed of the property under the NMB using the "strawman" method? I can think of none.

Jim

Jim,
Please provide reasoning as to why this method would be expensive and cite examples of costs associated. Also, the Russell case involved an old CA-based airline named JetAmerica. Wouldn't that be the example of one? So, how can you say you "can think of none." ??

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,
Please provide reasoning as to why this method would be expensive and cite examples of costs associated.

The primary costs for an individual or small group who undertook such a mission would be the printing, distribution, collection and submission of authorization cards plus the cost of legal advice throughout the process. Remember that the NMB says that there is no decertification process under the RLA, so the existing CBA would be foolish not to try to make the case that anyone making a "strawman" attempt wasn't serious about representing the employees. I can't give you a figure but it wouldn't be inconsequential, even for a relatively small group. I think USAPA spent several hundred thousand dollars between it's formation and the election and that was for a total group of just over 5,000 pilots, but some of that was due to the fact that they weren't involved in a "strawman" decertification venture but rather wanted to replace ALPA as the CBA. In other words, USAPA had to be ready to take over as CBA when certified if they won the election and there were costs associated with that preparedness.

Also, the Russell case involved an old CA-based airline named JetAmerica. Wouldn't that be the example of one? So, how can you say you "can think of none." ??

I'm not familiar with either JetAmerica (although I recognize the name) or the Russell case, so that's why I was able to say I could think of no successful "strawman" decertification attempts. Assuming that it is one success, that's not much of a statement about the success in "decertifying" a union - one case in something like 70 years. Employee groups are a lot more successful at changing unions, not that even that happens all that frequently, than they are at kicking unions off the property. Admittedly, an awful lot of that is just human nature - people love to complain about their union but few take the time or make the effort to do anything about it.

Jim

 

[southwind]

Another Delta employee that has no reason to butt in on union representation.
Are you a Flight Attenedent or work in ACS? NO,,, so what do you care about other departments organizing? ALPA and PAFCA ok with you?

Stick with the radios you need to attend to.

Sounds to me like you and cronies need a forum of your own with a Double-top-secret pass code that will allow all of you to pat each other on the back and sing "We are the World" ! :blink:

Besides that , believe it or not , everything that affects this company, affects "EVERYONE" in this company, whether positive or negative!

 

[Dignity]

believe it or not , everything that affects this company, affects "EVERYONE" in this company, whether positive or negative!

Someone actually gets it!

These delays, these unnecessary attempts that appear to create issues, a Union trying to make a point instead of just sitting down and trying to work together..not addressing issues that are needing to be resolved, eventually affects everyone at a company not just that single department.

That is why you always want to resolve issues timely because when the outcome is positive, it affects everyone in a positive manner!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Here is a great article from bapwild.
Does anyone remember almost a year ago that Delta Mgt. wanted to cover all employee groups in the SCD for the pilots so that immediate elections would take place for all employee groups????
Dignity, you seem to think that ONLY the AFA is strategising. Well, guess what? The group that you want to work for WITHOUT a contract strategised too, only it backfired in their face. In fact, it was so out-of-bounds that the-then Republican-dominated NMB turned Delta Mgt's request down, no questions asked.

http://bapwild.com/blog/

From the article:

"This is from the same airline (and Labor V-P) who earlier this year defied decades of NMB precedent and tried to manipulate a filing by ALPA (the union of its pilots) to railroad its mechanics, flight attendants and ground employees (not represented by ALPA) out of their right to select a union. Delta asked the NMB to call elections in those other employee groups even though no union had filed for election and Delta is not permitted under the law to request one.

Delta complaining about manipulation of election procedures reminds one of that shopworn movie line from Casablanca where Claude Rains says he’s “shocked, shockedâ€￾ that gambling is going on in Rick’s place."

 

[2BlacknBlue]

Here is a great article from bapwild.
Does anyone remember almost a year ago that Delta Mgt. wanted to cover all employee groups in the SCD for the pilots so that immediate elections would take place for all employee groups????
Dignity, you seem to think that ONLY the AFA is strategising. Well, guess what? The group that you want to work for WITHOUT a contract strategised too, only it backfired in their face. In fact, it was so out-of-bounds that the-then Republican-dominated NMB turned Delta Mgt's request down, no questions asked.

http://bapwild.com/blog/

From the article:

"This is from the same airline (and Labor V-P) who earlier this year defied decades of NMB precedent and tried to manipulate a filing by ALPA (the union of its pilots) to railroad its mechanics, flight attendants and ground employees (not represented by ALPA) out of their right to select a union. Delta asked the NMB to call elections in those other employee groups even though no union had filed for election and Delta is not permitted under the law to request one.

Delta complaining about manipulation of election procedures reminds one of that shopworn movie line from Casablanca where Claude Rains says he’s “shocked, shockedâ€￾ that gambling is going on in Rick’s place."

I remember...Strategising? More like circumventing!

 

[dapoes]

Here is a great article from bapwild.
Does anyone remember almost a year ago that Delta Mgt. wanted to cover all employee groups in the SCD for the pilots so that immediate elections would take place for all employee groups????
Dignity, you seem to think that ONLY the AFA is strategising. Well, guess what? The group that you want to work for WITHOUT a contract strategised too, only it backfired in their face. In fact, it was so out-of-bounds that the-then Republican-dominated NMB turned Delta Mgt's request down, no questions asked.

http://bapwild.com/blog/

From the article:

"This is from the same airline (and Labor V-P) who earlier this year defied decades of NMB precedent and tried to manipulate a filing by ALPA (the union of its pilots) to railroad its mechanics, flight attendants and ground employees (not represented by ALPA) out of their right to select a union. Delta asked the NMB to call elections in those other employee groups even though no union had filed for election and Delta is not permitted under the law to request one.

Delta complaining about manipulation of election procedures reminds one of that shopworn movie line from Casablanca where Claude Rains says he’s “shocked, shockedâ€￾ that gambling is going on in Rick’s place."

Still waiting on a semi intelligent response regarding the LOA 35 failure that impacted you directly. Or is AFA CBA failure something that doesn't concern you anymore?