The Truth in MSP

[pilot]

This is why the cretins who jump to conclusions without giving the crew or TSA the benefit of the doubt need to be disregarded when they start their politically correct rantings:

Date: November 22, 2006
Subject: Flight 300 MSP-PHX Passenger Incident November 20, 2006

The ACSC has participated in the investigation concerning the events that
took place on November 20, 2006 on the above referenced flight. I have
discussed the events with the Captain and have briefed the Chief Pilot on
our investigation. We have also had discussions with Federal Law Enforcement
Officials.

With respect to the flight in question, the crew became aware of suspicious
behavior during the boarding process of 6 individuals who were sitting in
unassigned seats and not in close proximity. Other passengers, along with
an off duty commuting flight attendant witnessed unusual behavior. Some of
the examples of behavior that was reported included:

· Changing seats, stating anti war, anti US-Iraqi involvement,
negative comments concerning the President of the United States.

· Two of the passengers requesting Seat Belt Extensions when their
body size did not appear to warrant their use; seat belt extensions were
instead rolled up and placed under the seats of the passengers.

· Modified reservations, paid by cash, one way ticketing.

These are a few examples of the observed behavior that led the crew, Station
management, and SOC to restrict travel for these individuals. The decisions
made by all the parties were made as a result of the behavior of the
passengers and not as a result of their ethnicity.

I applaud the Crew for their handling of the situation and Flight Operations
management for their support for the Crew. The Crew's actions were strictly
in compliance with procedures and demonstrated overall good judgment in the
care and concern for their passengers, fellow crewmembers, and the company.

Should you have any questions please feel free to contact me,

Barry Kendrick
Air Carrier Security Committee ACSC
[phone number deleted]

 

[xoxo]

This is why ...remaining long quote deleted by moderator

The news reports acted as if the airline and employees wronged these people....if what you are saying is true pilot...then thank god those people were removed from that flight.............good job to the crew and everyone involved.

 

[Harry Callahan]

I second this as it could've been a "dry run".

 

[pilot]

This is from Clue by Four. Typical of someone who is cocked and loaded without checking the facts.



"It's this kind of lemming attitude that allows the real terrorist to claim a victory in the first place.

Anyone on this thread who thinks this was tactically justified should not be in command of or serving on an aircraft (in any position where the FARs require compliance with their instructions). Really. These guys are not about to pray in the gate area and then down the aircraft. Or prey on the aircraft and then try to take it. They'd slip aboard one at a time.

The PIC needs a psych eval and perhaps a trip thru a real CRM interview (as opposed to whatever HP doled out at the time) and the FAs need to take a freaking prozac.

Ask the Brits about nice white Christians who blow stuff up. Muslims are not the only threat--the trick is to identify the threat not the religion/creed/race/gender. It disgusts me that so many people think this crap is justified in the name of "safety."

What we really need is for a white male/female to try to take down an airliner and then see how many of the people in this thread who support this crap continue to do so when it directly impacts them."


--------------------

Saving the world, one clue at a time.

Yep, truly saving the world. He should be so intelligent as to be a PIC and make the decisions they must make to keep the jet and pax safe.

Jumping to his liberal conclusions that the crew and security were to blame. Quick to label the folks who are there to protect us are morons who just jump to conclusions and base their decisions to handle the risk on how someone looks or acts.

The PIC did his job. The F/A's did their job. So did everyone else in the incident. And the agenda driven idealists jump down their throats when the facts are not known.

Flight crews needing a psyc eval and prozac? Yeah. Right.
pilot

 

[sharktooth]

This is from Clue by Four. Typical of someone who is cocked and loaded without checking the facts.
"It's this kind of lemming attitude that allows the real terrorist to claim a victory in the first place.

Anyone on this thread who thinks this was tactically justified should not be in command of or serving on an aircraft (in any position where the FARs require compliance with their instructions). Really. These guys are not about to pray in the gate area and then down the aircraft. Or prey on the aircraft and then try to take it. They'd slip aboard one at a time.

The PIC needs a psych eval and perhaps a trip thru a real CRM interview (as opposed to whatever HP doled out at the time) and the FAs need to take a freaking prozac.

Ask the Brits about nice white Christians who blow stuff up. Muslims are not the only threat--the trick is to identify the threat not the religion/creed/race/gender. It disgusts me that so many people think this crap is justified in the name of "safety."

What we really need is for a white male/female to try to take down an airliner and then see how many of the people in this thread who support this crap continue to do so when it directly impacts them."
--------------------

Saving the world, one clue at a time.

Yep, truly saving the world. He should be so intelligent as to be a PIC and make the decisions they must make to keep the jet and pax safe.

Jumping to his liberal conclusions that the crew and security were to blame. Quick to label the folks who are there to protect us are morons who just jump to conclusions and base their decisions to handle the risk on how someone looks or acts.

The PIC did his job. The F/A's did their job. So did everyone else in the incident. And the agenda driven idealists jump down their throats when the facts are not known.

Flight crews needing a psyc eval and prozac? Yeah. Right.
pilot

Pilot,

I called Kendrick and talked with him about the incident, something you might consider next time before posting or shooting your mouth off and criticizing other opinions, which are certainly just as informative as yours. (Information speaks to power).

It was apparent the captain was faced with a difficult decision, a rapidly growing problem on the part of some passengers and some of his crew.

He could have passed the problem off to TSA, likely, an option he will revisit and may even regret not using. He chose to (and I respect his decision) toss the visible targets off the plane, likely protecting them more than denying al Queda a "practice run".

In a perfect world he should have tossed the objecting pax and crew. In fact, there is a joke about a similar situation.

As far as the hysterical pax and crew, perhaps this is the way our society is going, instead of "being aware of one's surroundings and preparing oneself" we have become little children whining about monsters under the bed.

I can just see the headlines, hysterical passengers force way into cockpit and force aircraft out of sky because they think hijackers are on board.........

America, land of the free, home of the brave. Right!

BTW, can anyone tell me why flight attendents would give seatbelt extensions to someone who would obviously not need them?

 

[MarkMyWords]

Pilot,

I do agree with Clue on one point. If you were a person bent on "doing something" chances are you are not going to draw attention to yourself in such a way. But, I also agree that I would not be willing to take any chances. In my eyes, when in doubt, rule it out. If there is a concern, do additional screening and involve the TSA and local law enforcement. If they are uncooperative and unwilling to explain their actions to the satisfaction of all involved, then they don't go. It is not worth risking anyones life to spare hurt feelings.

My personal opinion of these 6 individuals are that they are trying to make a point. They will scream racism and try to take your eye off the ball. Make you afraid to challenge the things that should be challenged. I tip my hat to all those individuals involved for not ignoring the things that just didn't seem right.

If you are of Middle Eastern persausion, the last thing you want to do is draw attention to yourself in an airport environment. There is no doubt in my mind that what they were doing is trying to make a statement to make people afraid to challenge the out of the ordinary.

Sharktooth -

For your information, TSA was involved, all the way to TSOC in Washington. As was the local law enforcement and the FBI.

 

[AIRWOMAN]

Pilot,

I do agree with Clue on one point. If you were a person bent on "doing something" chances are you are not going to draw attention to yourself in such a way. But, I also agree that I would not be willing to take any chances. In my eyes, when in doubt, rule it out. If there is a concern, do additional screening and involve the TSA and local law enforcement. If they are uncooperative and unwilling to explain their actions to the satisfaction of all involved, then they don't go. It is not worth risking anyones life to spare hurt feelings.

My personal opinion of these 6 individuals are that they are trying to make a point. They will scream racism and try to take your eye off the ball. Make you afraid to challenge the things that should be challenged. I tip my hat to all those individuals involved for not ignoring the things that just didn't seem right.

If you are of Middle Eastern persausion, the last thing you want to do is draw attention to yourself in an airport environment. There is no doubt in my mind that what they were doing is trying to make a statement to make people afraid to challenge the out of the ordinary.

Sharktooth -

For your information, TSA was involved, all the way to TSOC in Washington. As was the local law enforcement and the FBI.

I would agree with the actions of the crew. Having lived in the middle east in the mid 90's.........Riyadh and Khobar Tower bombings...........better safe than sorry.

And I would hope in these times, that EVERYONE would do their best to NOT draw attention to oneself.

 

[LCC_#1]

Alot of us, myself included, were not trying to be PC. A person's religious rituals have nothing to do with PC. This thread actually started a couple of days before the national press got to the story. At that time there was very little info, causing everyone here to speculate as to what happened and starting the entire religion/ethnic/pc debate.

Now that all the info has been put out, I agree 100% with the action of the crew. While I do feel a true terrorist would be silent and just an observer, the actions of these six men drew TOO much suspicion from crew and passengers alike. If this WAS a dry run, these men failed miserably. If they were just peaceful imans, one would think these men would understand that people ARE skeptical and suspicious of them and their culture. Why would these men make such absolutely stupid decisions?

To me , the actions of these men are right up there with telling a crew member there is a bomb aboard the ac. You can't joke or be flip, or try to test the crew in these situations. We as flight crews must be trusted that we are not trying to discriminate but protect. I have no doubt most people I work with would have to have alot more reason to have an Arab' s removed than just if he/she LOOKS like an Arab.

 

[ClueByFour]

Yep, truly saving the world. He should be so intelligent as to be a PIC and make the decisions they must make to keep the jet and pax safe.

Umm, did you miss the reports on TV (not yours, which are, without a link or other corroborating source, even more suspect than what's reported on TV) that the FBI, local cops, secret service and every other law enforcement agency in MSP searched these guys and their luggage and concluded that they were such a threat that they were allowed to fly the next day?

Jumping to his liberal conclusions that the crew and security were to blame. Quick to label the folks who are there to protect us are morons who just jump to conclusions and base their decisions to handle the risk on how someone looks or acts.

Yeah, and in this case, far more qualified folks made the determination that there was (here it is again) no credible threat. Or did you miss that part.

The PIC did his job. The F/A's did their job. So did everyone else in the incident. And the agenda driven idealists jump down their throats when the facts are not known.

My agenda is the preservation of the liberty that America stands for. You (and many other airline employees) are more than willing to forgo that liberty to make your fellow lemmings "feel" safe to fly.

You know that's all it is, right? "Feeling good." I'd wager that if (and when) somebody makes an attempt at an airliner again in this country it won't be guys clearly dressed as muslim imams who are clearing coming from an imam convention.

Insofar as it makes life difficult for the "all X are evil" (where X=mulsims in this country, Irish in the UK, etc) crowd, the terrorists are not as stupid as you (and others) portray them to be.

But keep thinking that the heroic actions of the ever diligent crew in this case actually mattered a damn.

Flight crews needing a psyc eval and prozac? Yeah. Right.
pilot

Did they pass out the lemming pins at recurrent this year, or just the keys to the ladies washroom?

 

[supercruiser]

Umm, did you miss the reports on TV (not yours, which are, without a link or other corroborating source, even more suspect than what's reported on TV) that the FBI, local cops, secret service and every other law enforcement agency in MSP searched these guys and their luggage and concluded that they were such a threat that they were allowed to fly the next day?

Umm, did you miss the part where this took several hours to do? Do you think they should have held the flight while all the various law enforcement agencies investigated? If you were the Captain, would you have just have given them a glance and said let them stay on, let's go, in the name of liberty? My guess is if that happened, many of the passengers (and crew) would have then gotten off the plane, including me.

There is a heck of lot less liberty these days when flying on airliners since Sep 11. I suggest you get used to it and find some other liberal cause to pound your chest over.

supercruiser

 

[barbeetantrums]

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/style_ima...mages/image.gif
Insert Image
America, land of the free, home of the brave. Right!

This from a person who has this as a personal photo in their profile.

 

[Art at ISP]

I could care less about being politically correct when my safety and the safety of others is involved. As I stated elsewhere, I'd rather insult 6 people than allow another tragedy. I fully support the crew for acting as they did.

That said, why hasn't the press reported that Omar Shahin has ties to a known terrorist organization? I am curious as to why he's still in this country in the first place.

Why don't these "mainstream" Muslim organizations try to educate us about their customs?

Why do they refuse to speak out against and condemn the fanatics who would destroy us?

I would hope if it happened again the crew would act the same way.

And WHY do normal sized people need seatbelt extenders???

Let's get this incident out of the public eye ASAP. Enough already.

 

[Charlie_Tuna]

I'd wager that if (and when) somebody makes an attempt at an airliner again in this country it won't be guys clearly dressed as muslim imams who are clearing coming from an imam convention.

I didn't know they were dressed as muslim imams who are clearing coming from an imam convention on 9/11. I would wager your wager would have good odds anyway.

 

[ClueByFour]

I didn't know they were dressed as muslim imams who are clearing coming from an imam convention on 9/11. I would wager your wager would have good odds anyway.

The point is that the guys on 9/11 were (according to what has been written on the subject) a helluva lot more subtle about it than the 6 guys in MSP. Which is exactly my point.

What will be truly amusing is when, god forbid, a WASP makes an attempt on an airliner. I suspect those who "fully support the actions" of the crew in this case will have a total change of tune at that point, as it'll make the futility of profiling the obvious perfectly clear.

Kabuki security at 11.

 

[robbedagain]

id have to imagine that if there are any kind of remarks that are negative towards the president then that i would think is grounds for the law enforcement to get involved alone isnit