United's Pensions On Increasingly Shaky Ground

Checking it Out

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NEWS ANALYSIS
United's Pensions on Increasingly Shaky Ground
By MARY WILLIAMS WALSH


Published: July 2, 2004


s United Airlines prepares to ask workers for a new round of cutbacks, its pension plans look increasingly vulnerable. The airline has four big plans, and shedding any one could lop off more than $1 billion in debt.

Such a drastic step could nudge other airlines to trim their pension plans as well, to keep their labor costs competitive. The long-term prospect could be a series of failed pension plans and lost benefits reminiscent of those in the steel industry, a costly outcome for the government.

Which workers' pensions at United are most at risk? Those with the biggest pensions - the pilots - might not, in fact, be first in the cross hairs.

Because the pilots' fund had good returns during the stock market boom, it built a big reserve of credits for funding purposes. That cushion has allowed United, a unit of the UAL Corporation, to contribute less cash to that plan than to the others since entering bankruptcy, even though the pilots have been promised by far the most benefits.

The most recent data suggest that the pension plan for United's mechanics has been consuming the most cash in the last two years. United's plan for administrative workers and managers appears to have required the second-largest amount of cash, followed by the plan for flight attendants.

As long as this pattern continues, United could conserve more cash in the short term - and make itself more attractive to lenders - by chopping one or more of its skimpier pension plans. It could either freeze the benefits at their current level, or terminate one or more plans outright - a far more drastic step that would require approval by the bankruptcy court.

A termination would save the airline more money but also cause an uproar in the workplace. To minimize the backlash, United might start with the plan that has promised the smallest benefits - the flight attendants' plan - because government insurance would cover more of those promises. The flight attendants have already agreed to pension reductions, and they are bitter about a new plan to cut retiree health insurance. United might ease the pain by giving them other retirement benefits, like an enriched 401(k) plan.

United declined to discuss any aspect of its pension plans, and officials of the unions that represent its employees said the airline had not yet contacted them for discussions. Just a few weeks ago, United said in a bankruptcy court filing that it viewed its pension plans "as untouchable unless there was no other choice." But that was before the government denied loan guarantees to United. O. V. Delle-Femine, national director of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association, said he now feared the worst.

"You've got to gut the pension plans," he said. "I don't see any other way."


Whatever United does will be closely watched by the other major airlines and their employees, who have substantial pensions of their own to worry about. If United ultimately revives itself by terminating one or more of its pension plans, other airlines may also try to shed pension debt, to remain competitive.

This would not happen overnight. Pension terminations are difficult and costly. But over time, the industry could find itself in a long, slow race to the bottom - a succession of bankruptcies and pension defaults similar to those in the steel industry over the last quarter of a century. Steel maker after steel maker went bankrupt, and the only ones to bounce back were those that scuttled their pension plans.

In the process, the government had to take over $9.4 billion worth of pension obligations. Because pension insurance has limits, many steel workers had their benefits reduced.

A replay of those grim events in the aviation sector would be painful for airline employees, and ominous to workers in other mature industries, like automaking, where the pension obligations are also large and growing faster than revenues. And it would probably swamp the government's insurance program.

In May, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation disclosed that it was beginning to stabilize after two years of losses, but it warned that it had just classified $23.4 billion worth of airline pensions as "reasonably possible" to default.


Amfa negotiated concessions for the retires and is now willing to get rid of your retirement while securing a retirement plan for himself during the last convention!

Is this what the Amfa wannabes want us to go to? You all better become educated before we are all sold down the street by these bunch of used car salesman!!!!!
 
Checking it Out said:
NEWS ANALYSIS
United's Pensions on Increasingly Shaky Ground
By MARY WILLIAMS WALSH


Published: July 2, 2004


s United Airlines prepares to ask workers for a new round of cutbacks, its pension plans look increasingly vulnerable. The airline has four big plans, and shedding any one could lop off more than $1 billion in debt.

Such a drastic step could nudge other airlines to trim their pension plans as well, to keep their labor costs competitive. The long-term prospect could be a series of failed pension plans and lost benefits reminiscent of those in the steel industry, a costly outcome for the government.

Which workers' pensions at United are most at risk? Those with the biggest pensions - the pilots - might not, in fact, be first in the cross hairs.

Because the pilots' fund had good returns during the stock market boom, it built a big reserve of credits for funding purposes. That cushion has allowed United, a unit of the UAL Corporation, to contribute less cash to that plan than to the others since entering bankruptcy, even though the pilots have been promised by far the most benefits.

The most recent data suggest that the pension plan for United's mechanics has been consuming the most cash in the last two years. United's plan for administrative workers and managers appears to have required the second-largest amount of cash, followed by the plan for flight attendants.

As long as this pattern continues, United could conserve more cash in the short term - and make itself more attractive to lenders - by chopping one or more of its skimpier pension plans. It could either freeze the benefits at their current level, or terminate one or more plans outright - a far more drastic step that would require approval by the bankruptcy court.

A termination would save the airline more money but also cause an uproar in the workplace. To minimize the backlash, United might start with the plan that has promised the smallest benefits - the flight attendants' plan - because government insurance would cover more of those promises. The flight attendants have already agreed to pension reductions, and they are bitter about a new plan to cut retiree health insurance. United might ease the pain by giving them other retirement benefits, like an enriched 401(k) plan.

United declined to discuss any aspect of its pension plans, and officials of the unions that represent its employees said the airline had not yet contacted them for discussions. Just a few weeks ago, United said in a bankruptcy court filing that it viewed its pension plans "as untouchable unless there was no other choice." But that was before the government denied loan guarantees to United. O. V. Delle-Femine, national director of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association, said he now feared the worst.

"You've got to gut the pension plans," he said. "I don't see any other way."


Whatever United does will be closely watched by the other major airlines and their employees, who have substantial pensions of their own to worry about. If United ultimately revives itself by terminating one or more of its pension plans, other airlines may also try to shed pension debt, to remain competitive.

This would not happen overnight. Pension terminations are difficult and costly. But over time, the industry could find itself in a long, slow race to the bottom - a succession of bankruptcies and pension defaults similar to those in the steel industry over the last quarter of a century. Steel maker after steel maker went bankrupt, and the only ones to bounce back were those that scuttled their pension plans.

In the process, the government had to take over $9.4 billion worth of pension obligations. Because pension insurance has limits, many steel workers had their benefits reduced.

A replay of those grim events in the aviation sector would be painful for airline employees, and ominous to workers in other mature industries, like automaking, where the pension obligations are also large and growing faster than revenues. And it would probably swamp the government's insurance program.

In May, the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation disclosed that it was beginning to stabilize after two years of losses, but it warned that it had just classified $23.4 billion worth of airline pensions as "reasonably possible" to default.


Amfa negotiated concessions for the retires and is now willing to get rid of your retirement while securing a retirement plan for himself during the last convention!

Is this what the Amfa wannabes want us to go to? You all better become educated before we are all sold down the street by these bunch of used car salesman!!!!!
We already have been sold down the street dumbass, it started 20 years ago..... no bankruptcy needed for the twu. We just lost 50 years of pay and benefits, and the layoffs along with them. Remember, AA was going right into Chapter 7 liquidation, and the twu bought it hook, line, and sinker.

UAL was denied loans because they have a faulty business plan according to the lenders and the courts. The same as the AA business plan....run the airline into the ground and blame labor on the way down.

AMFA stepped into the retiree mess because the iam refusedto represent their members who retired with the iam still in power. They should have let them fend for themselves, then you would have bitched about that too.

The more you open your mouth cio, the more I'm convinced that you still have trouble remembering how to tie your shoes. Its no wonder the company loves the twu.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!
 
Hack, Typical Amfa rhetoric, dont care about the low senior members!!!! That is the difference in Representation. That is why Amfa has 35 to 40% of their members on layoff. Why not go work ay NWA or United under Amfa?

I rather make a few dollars less and have our retirement and job security in tact with the layed of members having the knowledge they have a Union who cares and a company to come back to work with. Since AA is the only Airline having full overhaul capabilities in-house.
 
Checking it Out said:
Hack, Typical Amfa rhetoric, dont care about the low senior members!!!! That is the difference in Representation. That is why Amfa has 35 to 40% of their members on layoff. Why not go work ay NWA or United under Amfa?

I rather make a few dollars less and have our retirement and job security in tact with the layed of members having the knowledge they have a Union who cares and a company to come back to work with. Since AA is the only Airline having full overhaul capabilities in-house.
How can you call this AMFA rhetoric? The division that created a sub standard class of mechanic was created by the TWU in 1983 commonly know as the B-Scale. This then found its way into the OSM classification of today. Yet you condone this division as if it should be common practice.

You may believe it is okay to make a few dollars less an hour, but I am sure that if the OSM and those bumped into that position would disagree. As for the layoffs, are you stating that if these members of the OSM classification were moved to full pay today that AA would or would not lay them off? These OSM classification members that you treat as sub-standard because of their seniority were force by the TWU to take a disparaging difference in wage reduction in your concessionary negotiations.

Full Overhaul inhouse bought by reduced wages and benefits and the OSM classification.

And a tax increase on only those employees who live and spend their concessioned wages in TUL country?
 
Buck, Third party Maintenance is a way of life for many of the Airlines today, With Sasco and Timco paying top wages of 15 dollars and no benifits its hard to oompete.

Please explain how you would have the negotiators negotiate differently? And dont say Amfa will do better, we know otherwise.

Keep in mind you have the line stations living in a high cost areas and need to have an adjustment to help them out.

Wait, look at what UsAir ,Delta, and United will do in the future to our retirement. This will have a major effect on all of us in the future.

Why not volunteer to work on the negotiations preparation and see what they have to contend with?
 
Full Overhaul inhouse bought by reduced wages and benefits and the OSM classification.

Buck how many OSM's do we have currently? Most of the positions are now filled with Technicians without license pay. Most are happy to have a job and benifits for their families. Unlike the third party maintenance the tens of thousands of technicians thru-out the industry who do not.

It is difficult to find a medium, BK was not the way to go and we see thru the eyes of United we made a wise decission.
 
Checking it Out said:
Buck, Third party Maintenance is a way of life for many of the Airlines today, With Sasco and Timco paying top wages of 15 dollars and no benifits its hard to oompete.

Please explain how you would have the negotiators negotiate differently? And dont say Amfa will do better, we know otherwise.

Keep in mind you have the line stations living in a high cost areas and need to have an adjustment to help them out.

Wait, look at what UsAir ,Delta, and United will do in the future to our retirement. This will have a major effect on all of us in the future.

Why not volunteer to work on the negotiations preparation and see what they have to contend with?
Yes Third Party maintenance has become a way of life in this industry, but there is no reason to condone it by paying your members less than the average wage of the rest of the majors and helping the company become one of these Third Party facilities. IF the TWU continues to allow for the reduction of wages, we will be at that $15 an hour before long.

Is the TWU conducting organizing drives at these Third Party facilities?

I do not know if AMFA would do better or not and we don't know otherwise. But I do know that your consistent support for the broken model of what the TWU has provided has both AMFA and TWU supporters alike upset with the representation we have today.

The first thing I know I would do is look into the declassification of the OSM and place these mechanics into the same status as the rest of the craft and class. Your consistent support of the companies OSM classification is plain non-union in its entirety.

I am sure the line station would support removing the OSM classification, but under the current structure of the TWU the line stations have virtually no say in the operation of the union. Yet now you have changed your position on possibly granting a cost of living premium for these line mechanics.

The lowering of wages also reduces our retirement pay out. You condone that.
In fact the TWU has been the reason why wages have been suppressed in this industry. Now you are worried about your retirement before fixing the structure of the membership you are going to leave behind.

Why not allow democracy within the TWU and I might think about becoming involved.
 
Checking it Out said:
Full Overhaul inhouse bought by reduced wages and benefits and the OSM classification.

Buck how many OSM's do we have currently? Most of the positions are now filled with Technicians without license pay. Most are happy to have a job and benifits for their families. Unlike the third party maintenance the tens of thousands of technicians thru-out the industry who do not.

It is difficult to find a medium, BK was not the way to go and we see thru the eyes of United we made a wise decission.
A little over the 25% mark I believe.

Why are they now technicians and not mechanics?

You have that right without licensed pay for those with licenses.

Yes I am sure that most of these mechanics are happy to have a job at a much lower rate than you enjoy because your TWU conceded so many items in past negotiations. Where is the equality? Where is the unionism?

Why not poll the the OSM classification and see if they are happy and see if any are working a second job even here in low cost of living Tulsa?

You are correct about BK, why go there when you can grant concessions.

Finding a medium, that might cause layoffs? Instead your path to finding this medium, is to maintain a lower class of mechanic at to concede union fought for wages and benefits at the bequest of the company.

It is the action of the TWU/AFL-CIO of total disregard for the labor movement that has placed the other majors in the labor issue positions they are facing. That and the company not raising fares to match inflation.
 
Checking it Out said:
Hack, Typical Amfa rhetoric, dont care about the low senior members!!!! That is the difference in Representation. That is why Amfa has 35 to 40% of their members on layoff. Why not go work ay NWA or United under Amfa?

I rather make a few dollars less and have our retirement and job security in tact with the layed of members having the knowledge they have a Union who cares and a company to come back to work with. Since AA is the only Airline having full overhaul capabilities in-house.
AMFA does not care about the low seniority members?? What? Do you hear yourself cio?

The AMFA did not start the OSM/SRP lower classification, the twu did. AA is the only airline that has had it for all most ten years now. The twu gave this concession in 1995 when again, the company said BOO and the twu bought it.......again. The company went on to make record profits in the late ninties and where were we cio??? ON THE SIDELINES, WATCHING MANAGEMENT STUFF THEIR POCKETS!!! SORRY twu, BUT YOU DID SIGN A SIX YEAR CONTRACT, SO GET LOST!!!
You are PROUD of this cio??????? Your a sick man.

Amazingly cio.....still you blame AMFA for company contract violations at NWA. That's typical twu bubba STUPIDITY!! The AMFA mechanics at NWA are fighting the companies injustices, (more proof of that July 2 at MSP) while here at AA the twu bends over willingly as long as those dues keep flowing.

The twu could have shown some legitimacy and leadership when the company got caught with their pants down, and conducted a re-vote as little jimmy promised. That would have shown some balls, some pay back for all the concessions we have endured for 20 years. However, we all know by now the International will not do anything to harm their sweetheart AA bed partner.

Now the twu paper tiger is comically showing its claws again (because of the AMFA drive) and donning new "show me the shared sacrifice" slogan shirts, and sending the company "scary letters". Like the twu is planning on doing something about being the disgrace of all the airline unions. Why didn't they do this last year??? Why now??? After all the twu already swallowed the deal, they bought every concession the company wanted with not so much as a wimper, now the twu leadership rises up and demands that the company take a larger share of losses??? This twu show is almost as good as watching the Three Stooges reruns if it wasn't so real.... and so damn infuriating.

"I would rather make a few dollars less a have our retirement and job security in tact with the layed of members have the knowledge they have a Union who cares and a company to come back to work with. Since AA is the only Airline having full overhaul capabilities in-house."

The above statement proves that our buddy cio is on some very good drugs and he needs some immediate professional treatment.

NO VOTE? NO PEACE!!!!!
 
Hack read the first post and ask yourself how you can agree with Delle if you were employed at United with 25 years of service! Now look at the potential damage Delle will cause at AA when you see at Alaska the pension has already been eliminated thanks to Amfa!!!!

These statements will be used every time the subject is brought up! Just like Delle telling everyone our scope language is unenforceable!!! Common sense tells us to stay away from this organization!!!!
 
What makes you think your pension and job are secure Kevin. Talk to the TWA people and the United people. The IAM told them they had job security and a good pension in place for giving up the concessions . When there done milking the workers dry they liquidate the company and go on to there next. These people are nothing more than corporate raiders and Industrial unions are there propaganda machine. Leaches of the working people. Most CEO's in this country would have been put to death for the things they have done if they worked in Japan . Then they turn around and with out your union saying a word tell you we are going to adopt a japanese way of thinking and doing business. What they mean is the workers are going to adopt the Japanese attitude toward doing things and they are going to take the rewards of it and help them selves like always.
Prof Sonny Halls pay in 2003 over 2002 Randy McDonald pay in 2003 over 2002. Your pay at the same time went down between 25 and 45 percent. How does that help us. NOT!!!!!
 
CIO your fixation on the other airlines baffles me. You have condoned as do your fellow TWU supporters the devastation of the mechanic craft and class since 1983. You blame the failure of the AFL-CIO affiliated unions on AMFA and you cannot even keep your own union in order. Your membership is divided, not just the wages that the TWU structure has brought about, but the policy of Ive Got Mine Brother attitude that caters to the retiree and screws the mechanic that is not even here. Are you proposing that this structure be changed?

You might attempt to answer some of the questions that have been asked.
 
How can you call this AMFA rhetoric? The division that created a sub standard class of mechanic was created by the TWU in 1983 commonly know as the B-Scale.

No, it was created by the floor that voted that contract in. Wasn't it the TWU that said "VOTE NO" yet the floor passed it by 83%. Look to your left and blame your brother, but do not lay blame to the TWU said vote it down.
 
Nightwatch said:
No, it was created by the floor that voted that contract in. Wasn't it the TWU that said "VOTE NO" yet the floor passed it by 83%. Look to your left and blame your brother, but do not lay blame to the TWU said vote it down.
No while the TWU took the position of "VOTE NO", the pumped fear into the membership as did the company. Crandall said that he would bring the trucks in and close TUL if the contract was voted down. And yes I blame the TWU for instilling fear into their membership. Are you not a former TWA employee?
 
Nightwatch said:
No, it was created by the floor that voted that contract in. Wasn't it the TWU that said "VOTE NO" yet the floor passed it by 83%. Look to your left and blame your brother, but do not lay blame to the TWU said vote it down.
If you were at TWA then how would you know what the TWU recommended?

The guys who were here in 1983 say that what you are claiming is wrong.
 

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