"We keep you alive to serve this ship!"
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Why would one NOT criticize the inablility to compete with WN? U's labor costs are lower. The WN model is a formula for success but no one wants to copy it. Including U. We want to reinvent the wheel using 190's for what? To continue the old, proven failure of hub and spoke and feed this and that and watch WN swim in profit while we barely eek out a meager profit as execs come and go with millions while employees are treated as liabilities to be cast off as neccesary. Great run on sentence eh?
Pardon me if I don't pay attention to your suggestion of not criticizing DP and the boys. The formula for success is in front of every airline exec out there but none pay attention to it. U signed the RJ agreements. U had the ability to shed those agreements in BK. U did not. And now U pays for it and continues to ignore the fact that WN has no RJ's. None.
Success in any busines sometimes involves copying the successes of others. Why is there a Burger King within a few hundred yards of every McDonalds in existence? Do you think that is a coincidence? Or does BK understand how to copy success?
pilot
luvn's post is very cogent and accurate, I believe. The reason U can't just become WN is because WN's economics are based on starting from a small base and steadily growing into easy markets. U can't do that with its current senior employees. You can's shrink to WN's numbers.
The WN model is a formula for success but no one wants to copy it. Including U.
Actually SW isn't even doing it anymore. Thwy only have 2 of the sacried cows left one fleet type and seat assignments. The latter will be gone soon the former will go if the ever expand internationaly.
Growth is the only thing now that keeps their cost low if they can no longer grow their model will look a lot like a legacy.
Actually SW isn't even doing it anymore. Thwy only have 2 of the sacried cows left one fleet type and seat assignments. The latter will be gone soon the former will go if the ever expand internationaly.
Growth is the only thing now that keeps their cost low if they can no longer grow their model will look a lot like a legacy.
That is kinda easy, they have always done it that way so the employees have that expectation. From the old US Airways people I hear "we cannot do with less staff or do more work we have already been cut to the bone" seems to be a common refreign but when you look at the numbers in some departments even after all the east cuts west was doing much more with less, we just alwasy did it that way too.
Doug said at the last qtrly call that our definitions of frugal are different and ultimatetly that will be the biggest merger challange. People are creatures of habit and it is hard to get more work for someone then what they have settled into. SWA culture doesn't allow for settling.
Just a made up for illistration. SWA does function A with 6 people have for 20 years, AWA did function A with 8 people, US did function a with 20 2 Bk's cut that back to 12 they think that is almost unmanagable, how do you get them to do it w/ any fewer? And that doesn't even take into account pay cuts. If you used to do X for $20 dollars and hour how do you get 2X for $12? It is a big issue? I think it is one only time can work out.
BoeingBoy
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- Nov 9, 2003
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Nothing like the old "it's the lazy employees fault" excuse....
You're right about one thing though - explaining WN's employee to aircraft ratio is easy. An easy to understand example of two operations - one a hypothetical WN focus city and the other a hypothetical US hub operation, both with 160 departures per day.
WN has a pretty constant flow of flights throughout the day, so those 160 departures spread over about 14 hours equals about 12 departures per hour.
US has a traditional hub flow, so those 160 departures are spred over 8 banks of departures resulting in 20 departures per bank and the banks of departures are just over an hour apart.
So US has to work 66% more departures than WN in approximately the same amount of time - an hour. Working more departures means needing more bodies.
There's a large part of the reason for the higher employee to aircraft ratio since the airport operation constitutes about half the employee count. A more efficient business model results in more efficient use of all assets, including people.
Jim
You're right about one thing though - explaining WN's employee to aircraft ratio is easy. An easy to understand example of two operations - one a hypothetical WN focus city and the other a hypothetical US hub operation, both with 160 departures per day.
WN has a pretty constant flow of flights throughout the day, so those 160 departures spread over about 14 hours equals about 12 departures per hour.
US has a traditional hub flow, so those 160 departures are spred over 8 banks of departures resulting in 20 departures per bank and the banks of departures are just over an hour apart.
So US has to work 66% more departures than WN in approximately the same amount of time - an hour. Working more departures means needing more bodies.
There's a large part of the reason for the higher employee to aircraft ratio since the airport operation constitutes about half the employee count. A more efficient business model results in more efficient use of all assets, including people.
Jim
WN has a pretty constant flow of flights throughout the day, so those 160 departures spread over about 14 hours equals about 12 departures per hour.
I don't see that at big SWA cities. They are virtual hubs. When ever I am awaiting a SWA flight I get there an hour early and I see no flights at the gate and with about a 20 minute span all the gates are full and then all depart and there is an hour of no flights?
What is the difference?
And I am not saying the "lazy" employee but it is what you are used to. No different then kids raised w/ very demanding parent vs kids raised w/ lax parents as reguard to what is expected from school work.
I kmow I wouldn't do twice he work for half they pay, it would be time for me to move on. I am not blaming anyone just saying I understand the problem and I think it is a real one.
I don't see that at big SWA cities. They are virtual hubs. When ever I am awaiting a SWA flight I get there an hour early and I see no flights at the gate and with about a 20 minute span all the gates are full and then all depart and there is an hour of no flights?
What is the difference?
And I am not saying the "lazy" employee but it is what you are used to. No different then kids raised w/ very demanding parent vs kids raised w/ lax parents as reguard to what is expected from school work.
I kmow I wouldn't do twice he work for half they pay, it would be time for me to move on. I am not blaming anyone just saying I understand the problem and I think it is a real one.
You are one arrogant sob. The government determined that the baggage debacle of 2005 was due to understaffing. What part of that do you not understand? I bust my axx everyday due to your understaffing and it is not because of you! I may be bitter but I have a work ethic! See how many employees have the same "ethic" when you pay them shxx. Dumps more on me, whatever. If you want a comparison of wages and work output, then you can look at WN.
Poor customer service is the norm and it is not because of the employees.
You cannot possibly fathom what goes on in the trenches due to your arrogance and ignorance. You contracted out reservations and have no clue as to the time it takes to smooth out the inaccuracy and sheer ignorance of the contracted company. I am compiling a file and when it hits the mangers desk it will not only make a presence, it will make a visceral THUD!
In essence your numbers suck, no matter what super duper theory or computer model they are based on. They don't take into consideration the real world, and are basically ignorant as to the product you are wanting to procure. It is not the employees, it's you.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
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Try graphing the departure (or arrival) flow for WN at one of their focus cities with that for US at PHL or CLT - the data to do so is available from BTS and I've used that data to chart the difference between US with other carriers on this very forum in the past. While WN doesn't have a uniform flow, it's a lot more uniform than ours (I said it was a simple example, after all).
The key is efficiency in everything they do, and the aircraft flow is merely one example. WN's business model abounds with such examples. US did, and LCC seems to be, trying to use low wages and short staffing as a poor substitute for efficiency.
Jim
The key is efficiency in everything they do, and the aircraft flow is merely one example. WN's business model abounds with such examples. US did, and LCC seems to be, trying to use low wages and short staffing as a poor substitute for efficiency.
Even if we could copy everything they do procedurely and install it today you still could not get the same results.
It is not just better managment or practices or work groups but a combination of all three plus the factor of 30 years. it cannot be duplicated in my opinion. They only chance is an airline from scratch and as you can already tell JBLU is having some trouble trying to do that.
Even if we could copy everything they do procedurely and install it today you still could not get the same results.
It is not just better managment or practices or work groups but a combination of all three plus the factor of 30 years. it cannot be duplicated in my opinion. They only chance is an airline from scratch and as you can already tell JBLU is having some trouble trying to do that.
UPNAWAY
Quote: "Once again I must assault this board with a rant...
During the three weeks I was unable to log in to the website I was also unable to purchase a ticket without logging on if I used my DM number in the checkout process.
So I called the phone number for reservations four times for four different trips I needed to make. Two of my calls were very pleasant and two of my calls were crappy. Every time I get connected to Tempe things are great and I don't pay the 5.00 fee because of my DM/FF status of Gold. The other two were a pain as the person was very hard to understand and insisted on charging me the 5.00 fee and acted as if I was an idiot for not knowing about the 5.00 fee. These calls were routed to call centers in foreign countries.
So I'm trying to do my expense reports and I see these 5.00 charges on my corporate card. I decide to see if I can have them reversed and I call. I get connected to Raleigh Durham and talk to a super named Daniel. He tells me I have to pay the fee but I can call the refunds dept and ask for a reversal due the site being hosed. When I ask him about why I sometimes have to pay and others times not, all he could say was 'well they work off different tiers out there in Tempe'. What?
So can someone answer me this, does a Gold member have to pay the fee or not?
Why are customer service reps not on the same page?"
Here is an example.
Fix it please.
Quote: "Once again I must assault this board with a rant...
During the three weeks I was unable to log in to the website I was also unable to purchase a ticket without logging on if I used my DM number in the checkout process.
So I called the phone number for reservations four times for four different trips I needed to make. Two of my calls were very pleasant and two of my calls were crappy. Every time I get connected to Tempe things are great and I don't pay the 5.00 fee because of my DM/FF status of Gold. The other two were a pain as the person was very hard to understand and insisted on charging me the 5.00 fee and acted as if I was an idiot for not knowing about the 5.00 fee. These calls were routed to call centers in foreign countries.
So I'm trying to do my expense reports and I see these 5.00 charges on my corporate card. I decide to see if I can have them reversed and I call. I get connected to Raleigh Durham and talk to a super named Daniel. He tells me I have to pay the fee but I can call the refunds dept and ask for a reversal due the site being hosed. When I ask him about why I sometimes have to pay and others times not, all he could say was 'well they work off different tiers out there in Tempe'. What?
So can someone answer me this, does a Gold member have to pay the fee or not?
Why are customer service reps not on the same page?"
Here is an example.
Fix it please.
UPNAWAY
Another example from an employee:
"I'm sure she was thrilled to hear that.
Just another request from the front line guys....
I really feel sorry for you guys (as do most of the front liners having to deal with things on a daily basis), but I really dont need to hear X amount of times a day how things suck and that you're going to fly (airline of choice here) because of problem (fill in the blank). And then I get attitude because I dont show enough emotion and concern that I couldnt rectify whatever fiasco you have encountered from the get go. If you have a problem I can solve, great, happy to oblige. If not, sorry. I'll do my best and if its not good enough, then excercise your alternatives and attempt to contact someone who can rectify the problem, but I really dont need to hear the whole story, gorey details and all."
Way to go. Nice job. You dont have to deal with this. Presumably it is real easy.
(Not directed at you Tadjr.)
Another example from an employee:
"I'm sure she was thrilled to hear that.
Just another request from the front line guys....
I really feel sorry for you guys (as do most of the front liners having to deal with things on a daily basis), but I really dont need to hear X amount of times a day how things suck and that you're going to fly (airline of choice here) because of problem (fill in the blank). And then I get attitude because I dont show enough emotion and concern that I couldnt rectify whatever fiasco you have encountered from the get go. If you have a problem I can solve, great, happy to oblige. If not, sorry. I'll do my best and if its not good enough, then excercise your alternatives and attempt to contact someone who can rectify the problem, but I really dont need to hear the whole story, gorey details and all."
Way to go. Nice job. You dont have to deal with this. Presumably it is real easy.
(Not directed at you Tadjr.)
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