What Is "other"

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
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As the airlines and the media run around saying how labor costs are killing the airlines the challenge for us as workers, since we cant count on the TWU and all the resources they have at the AFL-CIO to do it, is to seperate the bull from the facts.

The ATA, which is an association that exists to promote the welfare of airlines, admits that over the last 30 years labor costs as a share of operating expenses have actually decreased by 11.4% from FY1972 to the 1Q2004. (Source ATA U.S.Airline Cost Index)

In fact over the last thirty years most costs have decreased with one big exception.

OTHER OPERATING EXPENSES.

Other operating expeness has gone from 3.7% in 1974 of total operating expeness to 19.2% in 1Q2004.

This is a huge increase.

Other Operating expenses has gone from only 3.7% to the second largest category of expense the airline industry has after labor!

This is outrageous! As these "other" expenses continue to eat up the airlines resources the industry has decided to go after a category that has already been in decline. A category that by their own admission has consistanly delived increased productivity for over two decades.

The more you look at the airlines the clearer it becomes that we, the workers are being duped by the airlines, the so called "unions" and the lazy press thats too lazy to do any real investigative reporting and merely forwards corporate press releases labeled as investigative journalism.

There are two things that we as workers need to realize.
1. People will be travelling whether or not any airline is making a profit.
2. Airplanes will be flying whether or not any airlines are claiming to be making a profit.

Now as long as those two things are true workers will be needed to provide the labor that makes that service possible.

The whole airline industry could loose money, they dont have to make a profit. Why? Because as long as people are spending money flying they are spending money on other travel related items. Transportation is the circulatory system of the economy, shut it down and the economy as a whole dies.

Lets say you are the chairman of XYZ bank. As a bank you own $1 billion in aircraft, another $1 Billion in hotels, another $1 Billion in airport bonds and another $1 Billion in airline stocks.

You lease aircraft to the airlines, you make money here with almost zero labor costs.

You make money off your hotels which the airlines help fill by bringing the people to them. Again labor costs are low as most of the workers are unskilled and non-union.

You make money off your airport bonds as the airlines pay landing fees and rent facilities.

Now comes the airlines. If the airlines show a profit, then the workers in the airlines will demand that their unions get them their share of those profits in the form of better wages an benifits. So what do you do? Without the airlines the other assett will not make money. So you keep them running but in a permanent state of poverty, only daring to show a profit when contracts are in place that prevents the workers from getting a peice of it.

So does it really matter if the airlines ever show a profit as long as they are moving people around and stimulating the economy?

Of course this is a very simple scenario, it treats the industry as one entity. Howver as we add more details to the scene it only further helps to accomplish the goals of those who own the means of production.

It would be interesting to find out where the airlines are spending close to 20% of their operating budget. Especially since we hear nothing about this, we only hear about the other two major expenses such as fuel and labor. But let me ask you this, Labor and fuel should be the two biggest costs of an industry that moves people from one place to another but what could they possibly be spending all that money on that they hide under the category of "other" and shouldnt the industry focus on reducing that? Other is the fasting rising category of costs. If way back in 1974 they were able to operate by only spending 3.7% and are now spending nearly 20% isnt that a shocking increase? It has already surpassed fuel, and at its current trajectory will likely surpass labor in a few short years.

The fact is people that as long as they can come to us, they will. They will drive our wages down to nothing if we allow them, and so far there has been no hint of any resistance from those we pay to lead us. Our six figure earning union leaders are too busy buying stock and counting dues. The planes come an go as if they took nothing. And us, well we are too busy fighting each other to realize what is really going on. NW is right, we do need a General Strike. But he is hopelessly out of touch if he thinks that this will ever happen with the TWU. Our pension? Its gone, as I said last year "Why wouldnt they come after the pension?" They would be stupid not to. People that are not willing to fight for a livable wage in the present certainly are not going to be willing to fight for something way off in the future. And even if by some chance we did decide to have a General strike they could always just "give it back" or use the courts to "mediate a compromise" where we give up something else in exchange. No matter how you look at it, at this point what would the airlines have to lose by going after the pensions?

So as the airline strip us of our wages, benifits and pensions, as our unions cry the company's tune and shrug their shoulders in an admittance to complete incompetance the airlines funnel increasing amount of money into things like "Other".
 
Bob Owens said:
As the airlines and the media run around saying how labor costs are killing the airlines the challenge for us as workers, since we cant count on the TWU and all the resources they have at the AFL-CIO to do it, is to seperate the bull from the facts.

The ATA, which is an association that exists to promote the welfare of airlines, admits that over the last 30 years labor costs as a share of operating expenses have actually decreased by 11.4% from FY1972 to the 1Q2004. (Source ATA U.S.Airline Cost Index)

In fact over the last thirty years most costs have decreased with one big exception.

OTHER OPERATING EXPENSES.

Other operating expeness has gone from 3.7% in 1974 of total operating expeness to 19.2% in 1Q2004.

This is a huge increase.

Other Operating expenses has gone from only 3.7% to the second largest category of expense the airline industry has after labor!

This is outrageous! As these "other" expenses continue to eat up the airlines resources the industry has decided to go after a category that has already been in decline. A category that by their own admission has consistanly delived increased productivity for over two decades.

<snip>

It would be interesting to find out where the airlines are spending close to 20% of their operating budget. Especially since we hear nothing about this, we only hear about the other two major expenses such as fuel and labor. But let me ask you this, Labor and fuel should be the two biggest costs of an industry that moves people from one place to another but what could they possibly be spending all that money on that they hide under the category of "other" and shouldnt the industry focus on reducing that? Other is the fasting rising category of costs. If way back in 1974 they were able to operate by only spending 3.7% and are now spending nearly 20% isnt that a shocking increase? It has already surpassed fuel, and at its current trajectory will likely surpass labor in a few short years.

<snip>

So as the airline strip us of our wages, benifits and pensions, as our unions cry the company's tune and shrug their shoulders in an admittance to complete incompetance the airlines funnel increasing amount of money into things like "Other".
[post="201044"][/post]​

Despite the possibility that "other operating expenses" industrywide have increased as you claim over the last 30 years, the opposite is true at AMR over the last decade or so.

In 1991, that category made up 16.73% of AMR's total operating expenses, and has steadily declined to 13.28% in 2003. So far in 2004, "other" makes up only 12.78% of total operating expenses.

What is included in other operating expenses at AMR? Data processing expense, employee travel and incidental expense (primarily hotel and per diem for flight crews), insurance expense (liability and casualty coverage), security expense (paid to the TSA, equal to AA's 2001 expenses for screening), advertising expense (steadily declining over the last few years), credit card fees as well as typical business expenses like professional fees, utility bills, postage, etc.

I agree that lumping these expenses together allows the company to "hide the ball" which I agree should not be permitted. I'd prefer to see them broken out as "sunshine is preferable to darkness" when it comes to corporate financial statements.

But your post assumes that the items contained within the "other" category have been constant all these years, and that their cost has dramatically increased as a share of the total operating expenses. Lacking, of course, is any evidence that this is fact.

We don't know whether certain items that used to be broken out separately (like in 1973) are now lumped together in the "other" category. I checked out the ATA's latest economic report at http://www.airlines.org/econ/files/2004AnnualReport.pdf but I couldn't find the discussion about 1974 v. 2003 that you mentioned in your post.

I'm too lazy to dig up old paper copies of AA's annual reports from 1974 to see what the "other" percentage was back then - the 1991 numbers are the oldest that are on line.

But your overall point is no doubt correct in your view: Airlines are spendthrifts with every expense item except employee compensation. B)
 
AMFAMAN said:
ATA REPORT

FWAAA,
Question, What are Professional Services that the ATA report talks about, it up big time over the years.
[post="201360"][/post]​

Thanks for the link.

Professional services would consist of outside lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, consultants, etc. In other words, all the usual parasites. And you're right; those expenses are up in a huge way.
 
FWAAA said:
Thanks for the link.

Professional services would consist of outside lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, consultants, etc. In other words, all the usual parasites. And you're right; those expenses are up in a huge way.
[post="201363"][/post]​

Thanks for the quick response....

Next question, where would these appear on the 10k? Are they part of Other or worked into wages?

thanks

2003 annual report amr
 
Unfortunately, professional fees are rolled into "other" where they remain hidden.

In my view, the "benefits" category on p 11 of the cost index explains a lot: medical costs are out of control, leading to a doubling of this avg. cost in 2003 v. 2000 ($19,167 v. $9,740). That's unsustainable. But that's a problem facing every US business that provides medical coverage.

On the positive side (depending on one's point of view) is that airlines have decimated the travel agents, as commissions have shrunk into insignificance. Likewise, food and beverage spending is falling off a cliff.

The only good news everyone can probably agree on is the increased fuel efficiency: almost 44 pass miles per gallon now v. about 19 in 1975.
 
FWAAA said:
Despite the possibility that "other operating expenses" industrywide have increased as you claim over the last 30 years, the opposite is true at AMR over the last decade or so.

Not as "I" claim, as the Air Transport Association claims, you have the link.

In 1991, that category made up 16.73% of AMR's total operating expenses, and has steadily declined to 13.28% in 2003. So far in 2004, "other" makes up only 12.78% of total operating expenses.

Thats still a lot. Especially when you consider that such things as Aircraft Insurance are catagorized seperately=0.2%.

What is included in other operating expenses at AMR?

Data processing expense,

Communication? 1.1%

employee travel and incidental expense (primarily hotel and per diem for flight crews),

Labor? 32.4%

insurance expense (liability and casualty coverage),

Which Aircraft or Non-aircraft? Both have their own catagory. 0.2 and 0.8 respectively.

security expense (paid to the TSA, equal to AA's 2001 expenses for screening),

OK, that might account for the 2.6% rise between 2000 and 2001.

advertising expense (steadily declining over the last few years),

Do you mean Advertising and Promotion? 0.8%

credit card fees

I thought that was income?

as well as typical business expenses like professional fees,

Professional Fees =8.3%

utility bills, postage, etc.

Utilities and Office Supplies =0.8%
So all except for TSA fees are itemized seperately by the ATA from "Other.
I agree that lumping these expenses together allows the company to "hide the ball" which I agree should not be permitted. I'd prefer to see them broken out as "sunshine is preferable to darkness" when it comes to corporate financial statements.

B)
[post="201349"][/post]​
 
Bob even if you are right about every thing you said if Airlines are willing to either
A. shut their doors to keep you from getting more money as Pan AM and others have done or
B. send all the work over sea's for low cost foreign Mechanics to work on the planes to keep you from getting any more money.

If they are willing to do either one of these as many are doing allready then it does not matter much if you are right about the Airlines they still win, when you think about it the only way to win is if they really want to do their maintenance here and they really want their own people to do it, other wise they win and we lose. Talk to a former steel worker and he will tell you all about it.

I don't think they want to do there Maintenance here anymore nor do they want their own people to do it.

The Airlines lose a whole lot of problems by doing their Maintenance over sea's with foreign workers, it's coming :shock:
 
Raptor said:
Bob even if you are right about every thing you said if Airlines are willing to either
A. shut their doors to keep you from getting more money as Pan AM and others have done or
B. send all the work over sea's for low cost foreign Mechanics to work on the planes to keep you from getting any more money.

If they are willing to do either one of these as many are doing allready then it does not matter much if you are right about the Airlines they still win, when you think about it the only way to win is if they really want to do their maintenance here and they really want their own people to do it, other wise they win and we lose. Talk to a former steel worker and he will tell you all about it.

I don't think they want to do there Maintenance here anymore nor do they want their own people to do it.

The Airlines lose a whole lot of problems by doing their Maintenance over sea's with foreign workers, it's coming :shock:
[post="201427"][/post]​

Its pretty hard for a foreign mechanic to clear logbook items in New York, LAX or even the Tulsa line. Pilots tend to write up most og their items when they terminate. So unless the company plans on outsourcing all the crew jobs too, there will be US mechanics working.

Your job might be the one thats headed overseas if you are not willing to fight for it. I'm willing to fight to keep you working, all we want is for you to do the same to keep us earning a livable wage.

As for the Steel workers, we are probably producing more steel now than we have for years, automation has eliminated a lot of the jobs, those that are working have not seen the cuts we have.
 
And so what makes you think foreign ATM’s can’t read/speak english. Have you ever flown to MEX, LZH, FRA, etc, etc. These guys are great. These guys all speak english. The whole world who wants to be successful speaks/ reads English. Something to think about.
 
oldbscaler said:
And so what makes you think foreign ATM’s can’t read/speak english. Have you ever flown to MEX, LZH, FRA, etc, etc. These guys are great. These guys all speak english. The whole world who wants to be successful speaks/ reads English. Something to think about.
[post="201458"][/post]​

How will their knowledge of the English language help them answer a PIREP at JFK? How will Mexican workers in Mexico load airplanes?

We are getting off topic here which is that the airlines are focusing on Labor costs when in fact the trend is declining already while other costs, hidden under the category of "other" are rising at a very high rate. According to the ATA it is the second largest expense the airlines have, in between labor and fuel. These other costs DO NOT INCLUDE;
Labor
Fuel
Aircraft Ownership
Non-Aircraft Ownership
Professional Services
Food and Beverage
Landing Fees
Maintenance Material
Aircraft Insurance
Non-aircraft insurance
Passenger Commissions
Communication
Advertising and Promotion
Utilities and Office Supplies
or Interest.

Whats left? And how could it be the second largest category of expense?
 
Bob Owens said:
Its pretty hard for a foreign mechanic to clear logbook items in New York, LAX or even the Tulsa line. Pilots tend to write up most og their items when they terminate. So unless the company plans on outsourcing all the crew jobs too, there will be US mechanics working.

Your job might be the one thats headed overseas if you are not willing to fight for it. I'm willing to fight to keep you working, all we want is for you to do the same to keep us earning a livable wage.

As for the Steel workers, we are probably producing more steel now than we have for years, automation has eliminated a lot of the jobs, those that are working have not seen the cuts we have.
[post="201449"][/post]​

Actually Bob that is what I was talking about the overhaul Mechanics you are right there will always be line Mechanics, but I am thinking that is all there will be just line Mechanics and maybe maybe some light C work, but Overhaul will be going by by even if we fight for it, there is nothing we can do to make the Airlines continue to do there Overhaul work in house or even in the U.S for that matter, so as far as I can see it, us Overhaul guys had better start looking for a new career when we lose this battle that we will have to fight and you line guys who will still be Aircraft Mechanics will just have to get use to lower wages, It looks like we both lose just in different ways. :( but hey atleast you will still be working for AA in 10 years I think us Overhaul guys will not. <_<
There is another bright side for you line guys and that is after Overhaul is gone you guys should have no trouble getting AMFA in at AA but my prediction is it won't happen in 2005.
I predict that in house Overhaul will be going away in the not to distant future Bob so you will finally get rid of the Tulsa sheep. :D someday but until then I am going to ride this ride until it's over or until 13 years from now whichever comes first. ;)

If the Pilots can't beat these Airlines, nobody can.
 
Raptor said:
Actually Bob that is what I was talking about the overhaul Mechanics you are right there will always be line Mechanics, but I am thinking that is all there will be just line Mechanics and maybe maybe some light C work, but Overhaul will be going by by even if we fight for it, there is nothing we can do to make the Airlines continue to do there Overhaul work in house or even in the U.S for that matter, so as far as I can see it, us Overhaul guys had better start looking for a new career when we lose this battle that we will have to fight and you line guys who will still be Aircraft Mechanics will just have to get use to lower wages, It looks like we both lose just in different ways. :( but hey atleast you will still be working for AA in 10 years I think us Overhaul guys will not. <_<
There is another bright side for you line guys and that is after Overhaul is gone you guys should have no trouble getting AMFA in at AA but my prediction is it won't happen in 2005.
I predict that in house Overhaul will be going away in the not to distant future Bob so you will finally get rid of the Tulsa sheep. :D someday but until then I am going to ride this ride until it's over or until 13 years from now whichever comes first. ;)

If the Pilots can't beat these Airlines, nobody can.
[post="201465"][/post]​


Well the fact is that most of the work that is leaving is not going overseas, it's going to third party providers right here in the US that are hiring laid off airline workers.

A public awareness campain showing the likeness of Osama Bin Laden working in a foreign repair station on a US based airliner could help push legislation curtailing foreign overhaul of US based aircraft. At least with Bush in power we can count on more foreign hostility towards the US, especially in the poor Muslim countries where they get the cheap labor. That will continue to make foreign repair more risky.

The fact that most of the work is staying stateside is where the idea of one union and hopefully one seniority list comes in. Unionize all those facilities and remove low wages as the means to a competitive edge. The union should seek out members before they even leave A&P school. So instead of giving everything away to keep the work at one company you follow the work, but keep the pay.
 
Bob Owens said:
Well the fact is that most of the work that is leaving is not going overseas, it's going to third party providers right here in the US that are hiring laid off airline workers.

A public awareness campain showing the likeness of Osama Bin Laden working in a foreign repair station on a US based airliner could help push legislation curtailing foreign overhaul of US based aircraft. At least with Bush in power we can count on more foreign hostility towards the US, especially in the poor Muslim countries where they get the cheap labor. That will continue to make foreign repair more risky.

The fact that most of the work is staying stateside is where the idea of one union and hopefully one seniority list comes in. Unionize all those facilities and remove low wages as the means to a competitive edge. The union should seek out members before they even leave A&P school. So instead of giving everything away to keep the work at one company you follow the work, but keep the pay.
[post="201469"][/post]​

That's a grand idea Bob and I am sure there are a whole lot of people hoping you are right on this one including me but I fear that you may be wrong and that in the end most of Overhaul will go over sea's if the Airlines get tired of the Union's, I for one am preparing as best I can for not having an Airline job in the next couple of years just in case you are wrong. ;)

I will be voting NO on the next concession heading our way and I will fight as best I can against the company with anyone who is willing to fight. ;) even though I think we are going to lose. :(
 
Raptor said:
That's a grand idea Bob and I am sure there are a whole lot of people hoping you are right on this one including me but I fear that you may be wrong and that in the end most of Overhaul will go over sea's if the Airlines get tired of the Union's, I for one am preparing as best I can for not having an Airline job in the next couple of years just in case you are wrong. ;)

I will be voting NO on the next concession heading our way and I will fight as best I can against the company with anyone who is willing to fight. ;) even though I think we are going to lose. :(
[post="201479"][/post]​

Well there are different degrees to which someone can lose. Better to lose after a good fight than to just get your butt kicked without landing at least a few against your opponent right? At the very least, if you hit him hard enough he will respect you.