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Williston Noth Dakota

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tom barry

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Just watched the NBC clip (10pm est) on the Explosive OIL groth in Williston, ND
Since A/E has no problem flying into Fargo ND, and Rapid City SD, what in Heck is taking them so long to get into Williston ND (ISO) from ORD, or even DFW ???

You can bet if "Big Red" was still alive, they'd be in there. DL is (not surprisingly) slowly but surely abandoning a LOT of MSP routes. An A/E move into ISO is a NO-Brainer.

TB
 
We (NW) used to fly there... Not sure when that ended. DL has no interest in the ISN's of the world...

Looks like Great Lakes is the only game in town right now?
 
tom barry said:
Just watched the NBC clip (10pm est) on the Explosive OIL groth in Williston, ND
Since A/E has no problem flying into Fargo ND, and Rapid City SD, what in Heck is taking them so long to get into Williston ND (ISO) from ORD, or even DFW ???

You can bet if "Big Red" was still alive, they'd be in there. DL is (not surprisingly) slowly but surely abandoning a LOT of MSP routes. An A/E move into ISO is a NO-Brainer.

TB
Click to expand...
I fly into MOT a lot on DL. The flights are always full going and coming back. The majority of the passengers are in the oil industry. They fly into MOT. Work there 7 days on and fly back home for there days off. I know that CO/UA also flies up there out of DEN, and some of the oil companies charter flights out of HOU to MOT just for there employees. Seeing all the changes that are going on up there. Eagle would make a ton of money flying into MOT or ISN.. ISN would be an un-tapped market. Great Lakes flies in there now and their flights are always full. It's obvious that AA doesn't want to make money, but you would think Eagle would be jumping all over that.
 
given that markets like this are really quite small, there have to be very high fares in order to make flights work on RJs, let alone turboprops which are used on some flights to markets like this. Factor in $3/gal fuel and the potential for profits are even more elusive.
You can buy a non-weekend roundtrip fare for $800 from IAH (where the majority of the oil industry traffic would likely be originating) and that involves multiple connections.
There is no way those fares are high enough to pay for the cost of providing that service - which is why airlines are pulling down low volume and/or turboprop routes.
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flying chartered aircraft is probably the best solution for all involved given the relatively small market size and the fact that is concentrated in a couple of city pairs.
 
Great Lakes is flying Only one NS a day between Williston/DEN . The other 2 flights make a stop in Gillette Wyoming, and THEN on to DEN.

Mark my words, with a 6600 ft RW, someone will be in there real soon.

Kev, I hate to rub unhealed wounds,.........................but you and I, and Jr. Know Big Red would be in there with (say) a E70 to MSP, and maybe a CRJ to MEM for the TX. oil crowd !

Heck, an "enterprising gal" could make a Fortune up there,..............enough to become a Republican in a month or two :wub:

TB
 
WorldTraveler said:
given that markets like this are really quite small, there have to be very high fares in order to make flights work on RJs, let alone turboprops which are used on some flights to markets like this. Factor in $3/gal fuel and the potential for profits are even more elusive.
You can buy a non-weekend roundtrip fare for $800 from IAH (where the majority of the oil industry traffic would likely be originating) and that involves multiple connections.
There is no way those fares are high enough to pay for the cost of providing that service - which is why airlines are pulling down low volume and/or turboprop routes.
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flying chartered aircraft is probably the best solution for all involved given the relatively small market size and the fact that is concentrated in a couple of city pairs.
Click to expand...
Well with that being said. Then please explain how Eagle justifies flying to cities like Cheyenne, Rapid City, Grand Island, etc. I have a tough time believing that those markets are any different than ISN or MOT....Every market is small when you first start flying into a new city.
 
Though I'm glad they do, I'm still trying to figure out ART(watertown NY) :unsure:
 
tom barry said:
Great Lakes is flying Only one NS a day between Williston/DEN . The other 2 flights make a stop in Gillette Wyoming, and THEN on to DEN.

Mark my words, with a 6600 ft RW, someone will be in there real soon.

Kev, I hate to rub unhealed wounds,.........................but you and I, and Jr. Know Big Red would be in there with (say) a E70 to MSP, and maybe a CRJ to MEM for the TX. oil crowd !

Heck, an "enterprising gal" could make a Fortune up there,..............enough to become a Republican in a month or two :wub:

TB
Click to expand...

I suspect we'd at least still fly there...
 
ISN boarded less than 70 passengers per day even in July which was a peak month - and that was on multiple turboprop flights. Even with just 2 50 seat RJ flights per day, that is a 70% LF during the peak month - and likely a lot lower in off peak months.
Some have said that ISN's runway has electrical lines off the end of the runway which limit the useable length of the runway, making an RJ even less viable.
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MOT in contrast boards far more passenger.
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Despite the mindset that many have, not every city that wants it can commercial unsubsidized air service. If there really is as much corporate demand as some have suggested, then the fares should be a lot higher than the $800 RT that is available for a departure 2 weeks in advance with no Saturday night stay.
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The fares and volume are not high enough to support service with larger aircraft and the inefficient turboprops that have been used are no longer viable with fuel at current levels. And there is no assurance that 50 seat RJs could be profitable in a city with fares that low.
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If the city can support service with existing available aircraft, someone will offer the service.
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If the service doesn't materialize, it's probably because it won't work.
 
MOT is ~ 100 miles away.

We may not see increased service now, but with sustained growth in the area, I think it's inevitable. The only question is which carrier will capitalize on it?
 
tom barry said:
ISN is a EAS airport.
Click to expand...
yes, which means the market is not there to profitably provide service at current commercial aviation costs.
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The whole reason for the pull down of the turboprop fleet by DL is because the reimbursement from the government is not large enough to offset the costs - and DL apparently does not believe that the rates will rise fast enough to offset those higher costs.
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It is precisely because there are alternatives to ISN that the question should be asked whether a subsidy is justified. And given that the majority of the demand comes from a couple city pairs and from the energy industry, then the most efficient way to serve those markets might be charters from Texas, not subsidized service that requires connections through other hubs.
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IF the market develops to the point that volume increases and fares are high enough to offset what passengers can find from alternate cities, then the free market should provide an alternative.
The MSP is well positioned to capture traffic to the region better than AA from ORD but neither AA or DL will deploy resources if the fundamental economics don't work with the aircraft that are available. Given that there is a shift towards larger RJs and away from turboprops and 50 seaters, the hurdle for the size of cities that can profitably support air service w/o subsidies is getting higher and higher.
 
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