American To Spin-off Overhaul Maintenace Operation

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  • #16
Not so fast there Bob.

I personally know of three 15 year plus mechanics that have resigned in Tulsa from AA within the last three months. This does NOT include the many early retirements of those that have had enough. One left last week for the Railroad and I know of two more that are going through the employment verification process for the RR and likely wont be at AA past Feb.

And I too know of many that are looking for ways out. One slight improvement in the economy and the gates will not open fast enough for those in Tulsa that will be leaving also.

However, one difference for Tulsa. It is currently more popular to be a company suck-ass than a union man. The company violates the contract and most victims look the other way.

There are some who have no desire to even do the required work much less above and beyond reporting of faulty equipment. But the majority are still suck-ups that fear anything and everything.
 
Decision 2004 said:
Not so fast there Bob.

I personally know of three 15 year plus mechanics that have resigned in Tulsa from AA within the last three months. This does NOT include the many early retirements of those that have had enough. One left last week for the Railroad and I know of two more that are going through the employment verification process for the RR and likely wont be at AA past Feb.

And I too know of many that are looking for ways out. One slight improvement in the economy and the gates will not open fast enough for those in Tulsa that will be leaving also.

However, one difference for Tulsa. It is currently more popular to be a company suck-ass than a union man. The company violates the contract and most victims look the other way.

There are some who have no desire to even do the required work much less above and beyond reporting of faulty equipment. But the majority are still suck-ups that fear anything and everything.
[post="243776"][/post]​
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Ok well I think that the statement about the most agressive or what I should have said the "best and brightest" will be the first to leave applies to Tulsa as well. The difference here is that there are three types of mechanics here. Those who are trying to do as little as possible and ride it out to retirement, those who are looking to leave, and those that dont plan on leaving but dont plan on doing any work here either. The overwhelming majority fall into the first two groups. As far a company suckasses, most of the supervisors fit into those same catagories as well so there isnt much point to it. Nobody, not even management, is very happy here. In fact our Station Manager Mike Torns quit and became a mechanic at a freight airline.
 
Hey guys we all know that this portion of the airline never has created a consistent source of profit. Its just been a very necessary expense they cant avoid. Well now the times are changing there are companies all over the USA seeking out this work with a much different workforce than we have. I work in tulsa and hate to think about moving or starting over but I think we all feel that our best days are behind us as far as overhaul maintenace goes. Do you guys really feel they want to stay in this end of the biz! Its not determined by which union we have! The guys leading this airline dont have a viable plan to make the change. CI is a joke its feel good language so they can tell us they tried. We all have enjoyed a country club style work life for a long time. I'll be the first to admit it! CHANGE IS COMING SOON! It sucks because really there is very little we can do. To admit that I probably wont have the same lifestyle for my family and myself does not set well but we are no different than the thousands of other airline employees that have already found out. It is now our turn for another BIG squeeze. It surely wont be the same place in in a few short years. I have been preparing myself for life outside AA. And the bright side is there is a great life outside of this crazy airline biz. I'll just have less stuff to put in the moving van. Good luck and lets make the best out of this mismanaged ride.
 
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  • #19
last flight out,

I have recently read in the TWU Express and the TWU Local 514 informer that the concessions saved 3 maintenance bases and 12,000 jobs.

Not to mention the rags also claimed that AA is determined to remain in the overhaul maintenance business as result of the Jim Little "without further ratification" concessions.

Your post seems to indicate that the TWU has lied and hoodwinked the membership.

Why do we pay two hours per month to protect our pay,benefits, and working conditions, if the party is over and the union leadership is nothing more than dues collecting liars?
 
2004, You are right on to think you have been lied to or hoodwinked, misguided or whatever else you might call it. But I dont think any union is completely open with their members. Its a biz also. I dont think Amfa, IAM, or any other would be handling this situation any better. I never have been a huge twu supporter, I think the truth is the union is scared to death, they know that there is a very real possibility that this might be the last stand. The american public has no pity or sympathy for unions lets face it. We like them because they have created a workstyle and pay ( up until recently) that was hard to beat. Truth is TWU is about to let alot of mechs go, same with amfa, IAM and so on. Why? Because there are guys out there willing to work in moblie, indy, seattle,georgia, fla, wherever for less money, benefits, no lic premiums, and guess what right here in Tulsa too. We can be replaced very easily and the company knows this. But the long term effects will be a workforce with no alliance to any carrier. They just want a check. These are much different times in the aviation world. Its very hard to admit we have given 15 to 20+ years to see it go to ##it! The jobs will still be here just alot different than what is was.
 
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  • #21
last flight out,

Sounds like to me that you and me would be better off being the "FIRST" flight out, not the last!

As for the TWU and the "last stand". I had to laugh, the TWU has not taken a stand against the company since I began my career there.

The TWU sure took a stand against Mechanics all getting into one union, and they were experts at spending time and effort to create bogus eligible voters to prevent a NMB vote of the membership on which union they would prefer to represent them.

I disagree with your assesment of AMFA failing, the idea is to get ALL MECHANICS in one union and then take a stand, this idea has not been tried, therfore could NOT have failed. Meanwhile, the TWU with their lies, intimidation, fear, and threats, have suceeded in the delay of this idea of Mechanic unification. And now, you inform us that "they" are running scared. I think we should hold them personally accountable for not allowing the vote, and instead, placing us in a more vunerable and weak position. Your own words indicate a conflict between taking a stand and being afraid. How does that behavior succeed?

You can sugar coat this all you want, and claim no "Union" is taking a stand, I disagree. I think the Mechanics at UAL not any Union are taking a stand at UAL. Meanwhile we have a membership that still thinks the union is the leadership, and given recent activities, court decisions, and NMB rulings, they have every right to think "the member" is not the union with the TWU.

Maybe if the WORTHLESS AFL-CIO Unions were spending as much time and money on organizing those workers in moblie, indy, seattle,georgia, fla, instead of spending millions of dollars, time and effort in worthless liberal politics we would have allies in the third party MRO's. Instead we have a complete failed political policy with Republicans in control of Congress and the Whitehouse, and workers that have NO union representation, and those that do running scared without any backbone.

Again, there has to be accoutability for these failures, and it is not AMFA that has been advocating politics instead if organizing and promoting self worth. It is the industrial unions still living in their regulated industry method of operation and failing the entire profession. It is the industrial unions of the industry that have led in concessions and gievbacks even in industry profitable times. We could all forget about the past, and only focus on the current situation, but I believe there is enough history and fact to prove that it is really the leadership of the AFL-CIO and the industrial unions that has placed us squarely in a no-win position without a battle plan.

Good Luck to Everyone, YOU'RE GOING TO NEED IT!
 
Bob Owens said:
I agree that Overhaul is now going to be targeted for the screwing. I said a while back that once the company feels they have used Tulsa to squeeze as much out of the line they could that they might spin off overhaul into a seperate contract. This way they could then squeeze even more savings out of overhaul. Although I said AMR.

As it is now line mechanics are resigning, we had two more this last month. Both with over 15 years, both excellent mechanics. In my 25 years in the industry I can't remember any mechanics with the type of time these guys had resigning.

Its also clear that those who remain are less than motivated. They feel they have no future. Most are looking to get out. However these things take time. Those who are the most agreesive and motivated, the ones who do the most work, will be the first to leave. In the end the company will only keep those who dont want to do anything.

The schools are not pumping out replacements either. Perhaps this is part of the plan to get Part 66 in place so Bush can claim that these are jobs "Americans dont want". The industry will claim there is "criss" due to a shortage as the excuse to lower standards.

People who feel they have no future with a company tend to do as little work as they can, no "pull together win together" when they feel that no matter how hard they pull they can only lose. This of course does not only apply to mechanics.

The profit sharing and incentive programs are insults. We only get profit sharing after $500 million in profits and the incentive program amounts to less than a PL every three months. People should give the extra effort and work themselves out of overtime so that maybe three months down the road they will get a once a quarter check for $30 instead of $45/hr now?

Other things are starting to happen that are morale related. An engine was toasted and the tail on another was smashed. Both obvious accidents, but just the types of things that can be expected from an atmosphere where poor morale is previlent. People get sloppy because they are too concerned over things other than the job at hand.

These are the types of things the eggheads cant put on a graph.

Between those two things alone the company lost more than they saved in concessions out of this station. And we are only into January.

The equipement situation is a wreck. Vehicles sit abandoned for weeks either because of a dead battery or no fuel. People dont even bother to report when things dont work, they let it sit.

A large number of workers here are from Pan Am and EAL, and they all say the same thing, "deja vu".
All you have to do is look at the delays and see that there are serious problems on the line. The loss of talent and poor morale may kill the airline, hopefully not the passengers.

The TWU and the company know that they could probably hack off another 30% from Tulsa, but on the line they are already losing what they need in order for the company to prosper.

So I think that 2004 is right. They may put overhaul under a different contract but still have us considered the same bargaining unit under the RLA. By doing this the TWU get to further isolate the two groups, however it could backfire because the main reason why the TWU was able to keep overhaul from going AMFA was because overhaul made pretty much the same as the line. That will no longer be the case. As overhauls standard of living falls closer to what the line mechanics have been experiencing for years they too will be more willing to try something else.

What the TWU does not realize is that even if they got the line back every penny, we would still want to go AMFA. SWA should have shown them that. SWA mechanics chose AMFA after the IBT got them an industry leading contract.

By seperating overhaul from the line, they have removed the main reason why overhaul refused to back AMFA. If overhaul sees the line getting better wages because as far as they can see the line keeps threatening to go to AMFA they will be more likely to fill out a card.

So, maybe this could be another TWU blunder that could finally get Tulsa to wake up and realize that the TWU is The Worst Union. It seems that we no longer hear anything out of MCI anymore in support of the TWU. They seem to be at the point where they know we were right but just refuse to come out and state it.
[post="243774"][/post]​
Click to expand...
:angry: BOB I'm starting to see the light!
 
Bob Owens said:
I agree that Overhaul is now going to be targeted for the screwing. I said a while back that once the company feels they have used Tulsa to squeeze as much out of the line they could that they might spin off overhaul into a seperate contract. This way they could then squeeze even more savings out of overhaul. Although I said AMR.

As it is now line mechanics are resigning, we had two more this last month. Both with over 15 years, both excellent mechanics. In my 25 years in the industry I can't remember any mechanics with the type of time these guys had resigning.

Its also clear that those who remain are less than motivated. They feel they have no future. Most are looking to get out. However these things take time. Those who are the most agreesive and motivated, the ones who do the most work, will be the first to leave. In the end the company will only keep those who dont want to do anything.

The schools are not pumping out replacements either. Perhaps this is part of the plan to get Part 66 in place so Bush can claim that these are jobs "Americans dont want". The industry will claim there is "criss" due to a shortage as the excuse to lower standards.

People who feel they have no future with a company tend to do as little work as they can, no "pull together win together" when they feel that no matter how hard they pull they can only lose. This of course does not only apply to mechanics.

The profit sharing and incentive programs are insults. We only get profit sharing after $500 million in profits and the incentive program amounts to less than a PL every three months. People should give the extra effort and work themselves out of overtime so that maybe three months down the road they will get a once a quarter check for $30 instead of $45/hr now?

Other things are starting to happen that are morale related. An engine was toasted and the tail on another was smashed. Both obvious accidents, but just the types of things that can be expected from an atmosphere where poor morale is previlent. People get sloppy because they are too concerned over things other than the job at hand.

These are the types of things the eggheads cant put on a graph.

Between those two things alone the company lost more than they saved in concessions out of this station. And we are only into January.

The equipement situation is a wreck. Vehicles sit abandoned for weeks either because of a dead battery or no fuel. People dont even bother to report when things dont work, they let it sit.

A large number of workers here are from Pan Am and EAL, and they all say the same thing, "deja vu".
All you have to do is look at the delays and see that there are serious problems on the line. The loss of talent and poor morale may kill the airline, hopefully not the passengers.

The TWU and the company know that they could probably hack off another 30% from Tulsa, but on the line they are already losing what they need in order for the company to prosper.

So I think that 2004 is right. They may put overhaul under a different contract but still have us considered the same bargaining unit under the RLA. By doing this the TWU get to further isolate the two groups, however it could backfire because the main reason why the TWU was able to keep overhaul from going AMFA was because overhaul made pretty much the same as the line. That will no longer be the case. As overhauls standard of living falls closer to what the line mechanics have been experiencing for years they too will be more willing to try something else.

What the TWU does not realize is that even if they got the line back every penny, we would still want to go AMFA. SWA should have shown them that. SWA mechanics chose AMFA after the IBT got them an industry leading contract.

By seperating overhaul from the line, they have removed the main reason why overhaul refused to back AMFA. If overhaul sees the line getting better wages because as far as they can see the line keeps threatening to go to AMFA they will be more likely to fill out a card.

So, maybe this could be another TWU blunder that could finally get Tulsa to wake up and realize that the TWU is The Worst Union. It seems that we no longer hear anything out of MCI anymore in support of the TWU. They seem to be at the point where they know we were right but just refuse to come out and state it.
[post="243774"][/post]​
Click to expand...
-------------------
Bob Owens,

Quit telling the masses that the boggeyman wears Republican Colors.

The ARAC recieved the recommendations for FAR 66 in the early '90s and did not report out the NPRM until the late 90s'. All of those years were "covered," depending on the definition of "covered," by the Clinton Administration.

Screwing the working man, in aviation, has truly been a Bi-Partisan Affair.

Members of both the IAM and TWU were on the ARAC which reported out the final rule: no member from AMFA was allowed.

Inclusion of the current TWU CBA language for M&R was the direct result of a conversation with Luby-and him being told that we knew the TWU sat on the ARAC; while he stated that we should stop denigrating the 2001 contract as unacceptable on the basis of the language alone.

It seems funny now that we kept that language in the concessions agreement; it must have been a little oversight on behalf of the company.

If your scenario for spinning off overhaul from the line holds true, they are still covered through the amendable date. Of course, a little side letter of understanding can set those things right.
 
Boomer,Jan 31 2005, 05:09 AM]
-------------------
Bob Owens,

Quit telling the masses that the boggeyman wears Republican Colors.

I would say that he wears Red with blue trim but then again you have made a point of citing that in 1978 Ted Kennedy, not too many people have to guess what party he is in, was responsible for Deregulation and what it has done to workers in this industry while leaving out the fact that he also pushed for LPPs.

The fact is the Deregulation process started under Nixon and had bi-partisan support. Concerns for its effects on workers only came from the blue side.

The reference to Bush was triggered by his recent statement regarding liberalizing immigration so these people could come to America to "Do the jobs Americans wont do". We all know thats a crock, he just wants to bring in people who will help lower wages. Even many of my staunch Republican coworkers voiced disagreement with Bush on that.

The ARAC recieved the recommendations for FAR 66 in the early '90s and did not report out the NPRM until the late 90s'. All of those years were "covered," depending on the definition of "covered," by the Clinton Administration.

And a Republican dominated house. FAR 145 was modified to allow more foreign repair under Bush. The liberalized FAR 145 was put in place, FAR 66 was not.

Screwing the working man, in aviation, has truly been a Bi-Partisan Affair.

OK, but one is definately more hostile than the other. The one that gets the most corporate money.


Members of both the IAM and TWU were on the ARAC which reported out the final rule: no member from AMFA was allowed.

If you could please send me a reference where I could find that information.Was PAMA allowed?


Inclusion of the current TWU CBA language for M&R was the direct result of a conversation with Luby-and him being told that we knew the TWU sat on the ARAC; while he stated that we should stop denigrating the 2001 contract as unacceptable on the basis of the language alone.

Yes I remember that. Luby actually approached me on that at the Kreuz arbitration in August of 2001.He was kind of saying that if I wanted him to get Kreuz back his job I had to back off on urging that we reject the contract.

It seems funny now that we kept that language in the concessions agreement; it must have been a little oversight on behalf of the company.

They kept it because its useless. It does not protect us. It only shows that they had knowledge that it was a concern to us. It might be useful in a lawsuit but the TWU is in court so much that being taken to court by its own members is just a normal part of business.

If your scenario for spinning off overhaul from the line holds true,

Well actually I did not start this thread.

they are still covered through the amendable date. Of course, a little side letter of understanding can set those things right.

That is why Little inserted the 2006 "openers" which would allow them to make changes before the amendable date. But then again as we found out in the Summer of 2003, the TWU, as long as we allow them to be our representative, can do whatever they like with our contract as long as it is not "patently unreasonable".
 
MCI transplant said:
<_< Bob, I think I can manage that! ;)
[post="243935"][/post]​
Click to expand...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MCI,
You've just proven the "old saying" that goes "NEVER SAY NEVER" !!!!!!
BLESS YOU MY SON !!
WELCOME ABOAD !!

Your voice, added to this struggle will be a plus.

NH/BB's


ps,
The KC CHIEFS STILL SUCK !!!
GO NE PATRIOTS :p :p :p :p
 
NewHampshire Black Bears said:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

MCI,
You've just proven the "old saying" that goes "NEVER SAY NEVER" !!!!!!
BLESS YOU MY SON !!
WELCOME ABOAD !!

Your voice, added to this struggle will be a plus.

NH/BB's
ps,
The KC CHIEFS STILL SUCK !!!
GO NE PATRIOTS :p :p :p :p
[post="244142"][/post]​
Click to expand...
;)
 
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