AMFA National Officers to Visit Miami

[WNMECH]

I will try to take on both your points in one answer;

Several members on both sides questioned the review and position of the IBT in house lawyers. The Teamsters, at the request of the Continental mechanics, hired an attorney, Ralph Berger, who has served as an arbitrator and a mediator on airline mergers to take a legal and professional look at our options. He determined that the most legal, and fair method for integrating the lists was in fact the consent decree (which we are bound with anyway). This was the same findings as IBT legal. Some CAL groups did not accept this and asked for another independent review. Spivak Lipton Attorneys at Law were retained to look at both the consent decree and the opinions of Ralph Berger. They too agreed on all counts. A Teamster Local representing CAL mechanics decided to go further to satisfy it's members and hired their own council to look at all the other view points in hopes of determining a way out of the consent decree for former CAL mechanics. He too agreed with all the other attorneys and even made it more clear how hard it would be to overturn the court ruling.

All this has had two outcomes; a long delay on our seniority integration, and a clear explanation of future delays that will most likely take place if we as a group choose to fight the Federal Courts. At the same time, the Teamsters has listened to and acted on the concerns of both groups. If the IBT had implemented DOH without offering the amount of independent explanations that they did, members on one side would indeed be very upset and probably take the position that the union shoved this decision down their throats.

I do agree with your last statement "You all will still have to take what you are told period" but this has nothing to do with the Teamsters or any other union. It is the companies failings years ago that force this on us. Even AMFA was subject to the consent decree while on property representing mechanics. In fact, the outcome would be exactly the same if UA mechanics were still AMFA and CAL were IBT. It would be a harder fight, but ultimately it appears based on findings of the individual lawyers that the consent decree (date of hire) would ultimately dictate the merger of seniority lists.

I suppose we could have a vote on the subject, but really, from the stand point of the members, why bother? For a very large majority of us on both sides, date of hire is the most fair in this case, and the courts have the final say anyway. A vote on merging the seniority list, in my opinion, would be a wast of time and resources if the decision is anything other than the court order.

Knowing the way you twist and spin everything on this forum ( some say outright lie), it is hard for me to accept that it is as cut and dried as you say.

But since I am not a labor attorney, I will not argue your detailed explanation of it.

However, even the CAL guys had a hard time believing that their only option is DOH since they got their own legal advice.

I would like to get a take on that advice from a CAL guy though. It would be more believable
coming from another source.

 

[Anomaly]

Knowing the way you twist and spin everything on this forum ( some say outright lie), it is hard for me to accept that it is as cut and dried as you say.

But since I am not a labor attorney, I will not argue your detailed explanation of it.

However, even the CAL guys had a hard time believing that their only option is DOH since they got their own legal advice.

I would like to get a take on that advice from a CAL guy though. It would be more believable
coming from another source.

Here you go...

http://cletechs.blogspot.com/2012/07/consent-decree-opinion-letter-from.html

 

[WNMECH]

Here you go...

http://cletechs.blogspot.com/2012/07/consent-decree-opinion-letter-from.html

Thank you.

So now it looks like all parties see that their hands are tied and they have to follow the consent decree.

So why haven't the lists been combined by now and is CAL hiring off the street while UAL employees are still awaiting recall?

If they combined the list, couldn't they start recalling these guys instead of hiring?

 

[Anomaly]

Thank you.

So now it looks like all parties see that their hands are tied and they have to follow the consent decree.

So why haven't the lists been combined by now and is CAL hiring off the street while UAL employees are still awaiting recall?

If they combined the list, couldn't they start recalling these guys instead of hiring?

I wish it were that simple, but you are still talking about over 8,000 mechanics at several different stations who have a long history of doing things a certain way for many years. This just gets us past the furlough and recall argument, but we still have other issues and subjects such as premium seniority.

At CO, Leads hold seniority based on their time in the basic mechanic craft, but at UA, lead seniority is based on the time as a lead and can not be transferred from station to station. This is just one subject to discuss and hopefully now that the Rif/Recall is settled the seniority committee will start looking at these other issues. I think they are supposed to meet again in the first week of December? Regardless, the Teamster leadership is not making the decision, it is up to the rank and file committees to decide how the other seniority issues will be worked out in negotiations.

By that same measure, CO will continue to hire off the street while UA remains on furlough. None of us at UA like it, but at the same time, CO has their own contract and will continue to work from their own contract until the two groups are finally and completely merged under one agreement. Please do not confuse the two issues.

Merging the seniority lists is only one small component of combining the two agreements but MUST be done before contract negotiations can move forward. Just because the seniority list is agreed, does not make it implemented, and does not allow the back and forth movement by UA and CO mechanics to the other stations or work areas. We are and will maintain our "separate houses" until a new single agreement can be negotiated. Only then, will we see an end to CO hiring off the street before recalling UA mechanics.

For all intents and purposes, we are still TWO separate companies working under two separate agreements. Many of us do not like that the practice of hiring while there are furloughed mechanics in other areas is allowed, but in the end we realize the restrictions of the two agreements and the benefit to our negotiations in keeping them separate.

 

[Bob Owens]

I wish it were that simple, but you are still talking about over 8,000 mechanics at several different stations who have a long history of doing things a certain way for many years..

Between them they have four bankruptcies, and three different Unions, I'm sure they are used to change.

Hmm, no overhaul and over 8000 mechanics, are you aware that according to the ATD we will be below 8000 under the terms of our agreement? UAL will have 8000 and hiring while still getting 10 Holidays at doubletime, instead of five at time and a half, still getting at least two weeks of vacation, 1.75X for field trips, doubletime after 12 hours, retiree medical, dont you guys also get some money for work boots and other perks? Are you willing to give all that up, plus the extra $4/hr on your wage so they can hire some kids in A&P school and add some heads in OH? Hey AA will be hiring at line stations soon. Will you be applying? can you still get your $75K buyout, wont see anything like that at AA. You have to have three years if you come from the outside, but if you go into Fleet first you wont need any experience! This way you can boast to your former buddies at UAL that the carrier you work for has more workers per airplane than they do.

 

[Bob Owens]

At CO, Leads hold seniority based on their time in the basic mechanic craft, but at UA, lead seniority is based on the time as a lead and can not be transferred from station to station. This is just one subject to discuss and hopefully now that the Rif/Recall is settled the seniority committee will start looking at these other issues. I think they are supposed to meet again in the first week of December? Regardless, the Teamster leadership is not making the decision, it is up to the rank and file committees to decide how the other seniority issues will be worked out in negotiations.

By that same measure, CO will continue to hire off the street while UA remains on furlough. None of us at UA like it, but at the same time, CO has their own contract and will continue to work from their own contract until the two groups are finally and completely merged under one agreement. Please do not confuse the two issues.

Merging the seniority lists is only one small component of combining the two agreements but MUST be done before contract negotiations can move forward. Just because the seniority list is agreed, does not make it implemented, and does not allow the back and forth movement by UA and CO mechanics to the other stations or work areas. We are and will maintain our "separate houses" until a new single agreement can be negotiated. Only then, will we see an end to CO hiring off the street before recalling UA mechanics.

How many years do your guys retain recall? What happens if they fall of the list in the meantime?

 

[Anomaly]

Between them they have four bankruptcies, and three different Unions, I'm sure they are used to change.

Hmm, no overhaul and over 8000 mechanics, are you aware that according to the ATD we will be below 8000 under the terms of our agreement? UAL will have 8000 and hiring while still getting 10 Holidays at doubletime, instead of five at time and a half, still getting at least two weeks of vacation, 1.75X for field trips, doubletime after 12 hours, retiree medical, dont you guys also get some money for work boots and other perks? Are you willing to give all that up, plus the extra $4/hr on your wage so they can hire some kids in A&P school and add some heads in OH? Hey AA will be hiring at line stations soon. Will you be applying? can you still get your $75K buyout, wont see anything like that at AA. You have to have three years if you come from the outside, but if you go into Fleet first you wont need any experience! This way you can boast to your former buddies at UAL that the carrier you work for has more workers per airplane than they do.

Bob, 8000 (roughly) mechanics is the total of the three airlines that are merging. At one time UAL had close to 15,000 on their own. You have a point, complaint, or criticism, in here somewhere it is just not clear enough for me to respond. A bit less cryptic please.

How many years do your guys retain recall? What happens if they fall of the list in the meantime?

At UAL our recall rights do not expire unless a recall to the point of lay off is declined by the employee.

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob, 8000 (roughly) mechanics is the total of the three airlines that are merging. At one time UAL had close to 15,000 on their own.

And we had 18000, according to the NMB,AA and the Union, now we are headed to under 8000 with bottom of the industry everything, $5 billion in cash and the largest order for new aircraft ever.

At UAL our recall rights do not expire unless a recall to the point of lay off is declined by the employee.

Add that to the list of things you guys have that we dont. 10 years and you never existed at AA.

 

[Rogallo]

Damn, that's a HELLUVA bargaining agent we got here at AA!!

TWU's GOTTA GO

 

[Anomaly]

And we had 18000, according to the NMB,AA and the Union, now we are headed to under 8000 with bottom of the industry everything, $5 billion in cash and the largest order for new aircraft ever.



Add that to the list of things you guys have that we dont. 10 years and you never existed at AA.

Again, your point? Are you trying to compare scars and wounds to allow for the greater gain of sympathy? It really does not matter to many, unfortunately, other than to those of us who were injured. Even then, memories are short. What is happening to AA is a travesty that has been shared by many other Airlines and businesses. The RLA bankruptcy laws intended to protect the employees after the CAB simply do nothing for us on the aircraft side. The Teamsters have at least tried to help you out with this problem although you may not be aware of it.

http://www.teamster.org/content/teamsters-applaud-major-win-labor-airline-employees-taxpayers

I will stipulate that corporate profits, stock markets and executive bonuses soar and the cost is paid by the workers. Do you propose comparing blood loss will be the salvation for us? Somehow the general public will decide we have suffered enough? Doubtful.

 

[Bob Owens]

Again, your point?

Simply a response to your post. You said on another thred that guys where you work thought we did admirably by giving up 25% outside of BK after you guys knocked it down to 13% because we saved so many jobs. In 2002 UAL was really running out of cash when they filed, thus the 1113(e), AA went in with over $4 billion in cash and enough credit to finance over 500 new airplanes and by the time this is over will have eliminated nearly 2/3s of the jobs and slashed compensation in real terms by over 50%.

 

[Anomaly]

Simply a response to your post. You said on another thred that guys where you work thought we did admirably by giving up 25% outside of BK after you guys knocked it down to 13% because we saved so many jobs. In 2002 UAL was really running out of cash when they filed, thus the 1113(e), AA went in with over $4 billion in cash and enough credit to finance over 500 new airplanes and by the time this is over will have eliminated nearly 2/3s of the jobs and slashed compensation in real terms by over 50%.

I am not sure what post you are referencing? Many of us on the outside believed that the AA conditions were much better off than they apparently are. From our inexperienced and uneducated position, watching our UAL OV jobs go out the door was a monumental failure compared to the work being done by your own mechanics at AA in house. Again, however, reading your plight on this board has changed some of my perceptions, but that is just me. You ask many of the people I work with and most still believe that keeping jobs in house was a win for mechanics at AA.

I can see both sides of the argument. Who is to say what works better? In either case their were losses, and even more losses. None of us won anything.

 

[swamt]

I am not sure what post you are referencing? Many of us on the outside believed that the AA conditions were much better off than they apparently are. From our inexperienced and uneducated position, watching our UAL OV jobs go out the door was a monumental failure compared to the work being done by your own mechanics at AA in house. Again, however, reading your plight on this board has changed some of my perceptions, but that is just me. You ask many of the people I work with and most still believe that keeping jobs in house was a win for mechanics at AA.

I can see both sides of the argument. Who is to say what works better? In either case their were losses, and even more losses. None of us won anything.

Holy crap. I see Anomally finally admitted the TWU has lost jobs at AA. I mean lost jobs, not change in unions Anomally.

Some of the US guys are posting that there will be more jobs X'ed after a merger, can any AA'ers elaborate pls?? Are you guys hearing the same if there were a merger?

 

[Bob Owens]

Holy crap. I see Anomally finally admitted the TWU has lost jobs at AA. I mean lost jobs, not change in unions Anomally.

Some of the US guys are posting that there will be more jobs X'ed after a merger, can any AA'ers elaborate pls?? Are you guys hearing the same if there were a merger?

Its common that after a merger layoffs occur, however when looking at the last three mergers in the airlines that has not been the case for Pilots and Mechanics. With both skillsets becoming scarcer by the day the better way to achieve reduced headcounts are through schemes that eliminate the worker from the market rather than lay off your junior, lowest paid workers who will promptly become your competitors assett. In other words give older workers who are more likely to leave the workforce an incentive to leave and keep your younger workers. We saw this at UAL where they offered $75K prior to its merger with CAL. We didnt see mechanics riffed after the DAL-NWA merger or the Southwest -Airtran mergers either. IIRC the UAL-CAL mereger resulted in a 26% headcount reduction for the carrier, there were layoffs, not in maintenance though.

I do noy think that if we merge there will be many mechanics laid off. We may see another early out though in order to get a combined industry bottom joint contract passed.