AMT PAY RATES

[Bob Owens]

The term (AMT) can also apply to an A&P, I also know mechanics that hold A&P Ratings and are not paid a license premium, where I work they are titled OSM's.

Once again SCAB, you don't know what the f..k your talking about!

I have to agree with the scab on this issue, but probably not for the same reasons.

While an AMT can be an A&P it would also apply to someone who only posesses an "A" or a "P" or no liscence at all but has recieved training to handle a maintenance function on any aircraft component. While AA and the TWU may call unliscenced AMTs "OSM's" in the contract, so they can pay them less than A&Ps(I believe that some OSMs do in fact posess A&Ps, and are therefore subject to the same rules and penalties as an A&P even though they are not paid for their A&P but thats another discussion), they do not distinguish between them in any press releases such as when they cite that they employ 6000 AMTs at Tulsa or 1500 AMTs at Alliance despite the fact that a lot of those counted as AMTs are in fact unliscenced.

To the majority of the public there is no difference between the two, phonetically they are even similar, Ay- aNd-pEE, Ay-eM-tEE.

I am leary of adopting this new title and prefer to be called an A&P.

One of the things I dont like about the new all encompassing title, and the acceptance of its use by A&P MECHANICS, is that I feel its a lead in to FAR66 and the eventual dissolution of a federally controlled A&P liscencing program in favor of a company controled, non-portable, AMT certificate program. This program will replace our A&P liscences with company controlled and issued FAA certificates that are not portable. Workers would have the same liabilties, subject to FAA fines ect, but not have the portability of an A&P liscence.

Whereas now, when the company pressures us to sign off unairworthy items so a plane can make a trip, one of our responses is that as FAA liscenced A&P mechanics we work under terms set forth by the FAA and our liscence is portable and we are not going to lose it for this company, but as AMTs under FAR 66 we will no longer have the liscence, and since the company issues them they will take anybody off the street who is willing to work under whatever conditions, including pencil whipping when schedule demands it,and simply give them an AMT Certificate.

Acceptance of the AMT title (over the A&P) is critical to making the transition as uncontroversal as possible. The phonetically similar sounding titles only makes any possible debate about when the FAA changes logbook release requirements from A&P to AMT more difficult and confusing for anyone outside the profession to follow, and on top of that who will be argueing on our behalf-the TWU??!! Why do you think the industry is working so hard to kill off AMFA??

So yea there is a difference, sure the AMT title covers A&P but an AMT may not be an A&P and as A&Ps we should resist using it since it diminishes our status as liscenced A&P Mechanics and makes us the same as a guy who sat in a four hour class about rebuilding seats.

BeenThereDoneThat, if you go to the link on AA pay rates you should be aware that starting pay, under the TWU agreement at AA is lower today in actual, unadjusted terms, than it was over 20 years ago. So a kid coming out of school today, starting at AA would have a smaller paycheck than his father started at 20 years ago. Thats right, the number on his paycheck would be less than someone in the same job got was before he was born. This is truly staggering and I doubt you could find a similar degredation of starting pay rates anywhere else in an industrialized country, even in non-union shops. The fact is that the minimage wage growth has execeeded starting wage Mechanic pay under the TWU by a very wide margin. So in other words when adjusted for inflation its somewhere in the order of 80% lower today than it was then. Top out pay, under the same conditions, with benifits such as holidays vacation etc put in is over 40% less than it was then . If you would like the figures from the old contract let me know.

 

[local 12 proud]

I have to agree with the scab on this issue, but probably not for the same reasons.

While an AMT can be an A&P it would also apply to someone who only posesses an "A" or a "P" or no liscence at all but has recieved training to handle a maintenance function on any aircraft component. While AA and the TWU may call unliscenced AMTs "OSM's" in the contract, so they can pay them less than A&Ps(I believe that some OSMs do in fact posess A&Ps, and are therefore subject to the same rules and penalties as an A&P even though they are not paid for their A&P but thats another discussion), they do not distinguish between them in any press releases such as when they cite that they employ 6000 AMTs at Tulsa or 1500 AMTs at Alliance despite the fact that a lot of those counted as AMTs are in fact unliscenced.

Bob If you read post #34 I think you will see that is what I was saying, but thanks for giving a better description nonetheless.

 

[local 12 proud]

Local, could you elaborate on this "OSM"? I seem to recall hearing that term somewhere, but am unsure to its meaning, or where I heard it.
Thanks.

(OSM) Overhaul Support Mechanic, formerly known as (SRP) Shop Repair Person. Many of these individuals hold an A&P certificate, yet are not paid any kind of premium.

 

[local 12 proud]

local, with your permission, I would like to put my "inspecter" hat on regarding this blue juice issue.

Dude you don't need my permission for anything, but since you asked I would'nt let a SCAB Inspect my shorts for skid marks!

...And no, I refuse to deviate unless an engineer puts his stamp on it. Your full of crap just like your SCAB brother PTO, Ive been in aviation maintenance well over 20 years and have not once ran into a maintenance issue that was'nt covered by somekind of reference material, and if limits were exceeded it was approved by engineering.

I don't subscribe to your notion of aviation maintenance where If the Boss man say's its ok, just sign it off!

...Done IAW CSAR!

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

I have to agree with the scab on this issue, but probably not for the same reasons.

While an AMT can be an A&P it would also apply to someone who only posesses an "A" or a "P" or no liscence at all but has recieved training to handle a maintenance function on any aircraft component. While AA and the TWU may call unliscenced AMTs "OSM's" in the contract, so they can pay them less than A&Ps(I believe that some OSMs do in fact posess A&Ps, and are therefore subject to the same rules and penalties as an A&P even though they are not paid for their A&P but thats another discussion), they do not distinguish between them in any press releases such as when they cite that they employ 6000 AMTs at Tulsa or 1500 AMTs at Alliance despite the fact that a lot of those counted as AMTs are in fact unliscenced.

To the majority of the public there is no difference between the two, phonetically they are even similar, Ay- aNd-pEE, Ay-eM-tEE.

I am leary of adopting this new title and prefer to be called an A&P.

One of the things I dont like about the new all encompassing title, and the acceptance of its use by A&P MECHANICS, is that I feel its a lead in to FAR66 and the eventual dissolution of a federally controlled A&P liscencing program in favor of a company controled, non-portable, AMT certificate program. This program will replace our A&P liscences with company controlled and issued FAA certificates that are not portable. Workers would have the same liabilties, subject to FAA fines ect, but not have the portability of an A&P liscence.

Whereas now, when the company pressures us to sign off unairworthy items so a plane can make a trip, one of our responses is that as FAA liscenced A&P mechanics we work under terms set forth by the FAA and our liscence is portable and we are not going to lose it for this company, but as AMTs under FAR 66 we will no longer have the liscence, and since the company issues them they will take anybody off the street who is willing to work under whatever conditions, including pencil whipping when schedule demands it,and simply give them an AMT Certificate.

Acceptance of the AMT title (over the A&P) is critical to making the transition as uncontroversal as possible. The phonetically similar sounding titles only makes any possible debate about when the FAA changes logbook release requirements from A&P to AMT more difficult and confusing for anyone outside the profession to follow, and on top of that who will be argueing on our behalf-the TWU??!! Why do you think the industry is working so hard to kill off AMFA??

So yea there is a difference, sure the AMT title covers A&P but an AMT may not be an A&P and as A&Ps we should resist using it since it diminishes our status as liscenced A&P Mechanics and makes us the same as a guy who sat in a four hour class about rebuilding seats.

BeenThereDoneThat, if you go to the link on AA pay rates you should be aware that starting pay, under the TWU agreement at AA is lower today in actual, unadjusted terms, than it was over 20 years ago. So a kid coming out of school today, starting at AA would have a smaller paycheck than his father started at 20 years ago. Thats right, the number on his paycheck would be less than someone in the same job got was before he was born. This is truly staggering and I doubt you could find a similar degredation of starting pay rates anywhere else in an industrialized country, even in non-union shops. The fact is that the minimage wage growth has execeeded starting wage Mechanic pay under the TWU by a very wide margin. So in other words when adjusted for inflation its somewhere in the order of 80% lower today than it was then. Top out pay, under the same conditions, with benifits such as holidays vacation etc put in is over 40% less than it was then . If you would like the figures from the old contract let me know.

You actually agree with the scab for almost exactly the same reasons.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Dude you don't need my permission for anything, but since you asked I would'nt let a SCAB Inspect my shorts for skid marks!

...And no, I refuse to deviate unless an engineer puts his stamp on it. Your full of crap just like your SCAB brother PTO, Ive been in aviation maintenance well over 20 years and have not once ran into a maintenance issue that was'nt covered by somekind of reference material, and if limits were exceeded it was approved by engineering.

I don't subscribe to your notion of aviation maintenance where If the Boss man say's its ok, just sign it off!

...Done IAW CSAR!

I think you misunderstood my meaning...under NO circumstances would I buy something off just because "The boss said so". When I was interviewed for this position, I made it very clear that if they were looking for someone to merely "rubberstamp" things off, they were wasting my time and thiers. Now I admit it is VERY convinient to have engineering support all the time. That is a HUGE benny of working for a major carrier, and helps relieve the burden of responsibility from the shoulders of the ones on the floor. However- Many times, particularly in smaller operations, you may not have that level of support, and the pubs sometimes can be rather ambiquus. The first and foremost question is, "Is this safe?" Obviously, if the answer is no, you go no further...PERIOD! If the answer is yes, than the next question is, "Is it in the strictest accordance to the book?" If yes, your golden, carry on. If no, than ask, "is there any other reference we can "Umbrella" this particular action under to make sure it is legal?" If yes, again carry on and complete the mission. If, after all resources are exhausted, you can find no documentation even REMOTELY covering what you did, and engineering is not available, then I suggest you pass it off to second shift, and go have a cold barley soda! (it's a joke guys, dont get all froggy now)
Sooner or later in this industry, the decision is going to rest on your shoulders. Fortunately, in most cases there IS engineering, or some other documentation to back you up. On rare occasions however, you may not have that luxery, and will have to make the call yourself. If I were unwilling to bear this responsibility, I never would have excepted my stamp.
By the way, I merely asked your permission to be polite. You have on occasion earned that courtesy. I apologise if that offended you.

(OSM) Overhaul Support Mechanic, formerly known as (SRP) Shop Repair Person. Many of these individuals hold an A&P certificate, yet are not paid any kind of premium.

I'm probably gonna regret this, but I gotta ask: Why arent they getting paid for their tickets, and why would they work in this position in the first place? I humbly put my "Ignorant Scab" hat on for this one.

 

[local 12 proud]

Sooner or later in this industry, the decision is going to rest on your shoulders. Fortunately, in most cases there IS engineering, or some other documentation to back you up. On rare occasions however, you may not have that luxery, and will have to make the call yourself. If I were unwilling to bear this responsibility, I never would have excepted my stamp.
By the way, I merely asked your permission to be polite. You have on occasion earned that courtesy. I apologise if that offended you.

What the hell are you talking about man? It always rest's on the mechanic's shoulders. you/they are the ones who signed off the corrective action.

Your a GD Liar to state that on occasion aircraft maintenance requires just winging it without the benefit of reference material.
Im not talking about Ma & Pa's cropduster, Im talking civilian transportation.

You are f..king dangerous SCAB!

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

What the hell are you talking about man? It always rest's on the mechanic's shoulders. you/they are the ones who signed off the corrective action.

Very true. Ultimately, the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ACTION falls on the A and P. However, as a lead, foreman, inspecter, whathaveyou, there is the added responsibility of the decision making process. Many times in MY 20+ years in aviation, I have had to make some pretty tough on the spot calls as to what kind of action to take in a given situation. Granted, my 20 years experience probably is a bit different than yours. For most of my career, I dd not have the kind of support structure available to you and I now. This is meant in no way to belittle you, but merely to point out why perhaps I have had to make so many stand alone calls whereas you have admitted to NEVER having to make them.
For the record, if I DO make a bad call, (and there have been a rare few-fortunately never costing more than a handful of man-hours), Then I stand FULLY prepared to face the consequences. If one of my mechanics does something wrong based on what I directed him to do, THEN I TAKE THE BLAME! This hanging out some poor kid to dry to save your own ass is HORSES**T!
At any rate, I hope that clarifies things a bit. (By the way, My brother is going bear hunting in Alaska next week. Today we take the Smith .50 cal double action he bought recently out to the range. CANT WAIT!!!!)

 

[local 12 proud]

(By the way, My brother is going bear hunting in Alaska next week. Today we take the Smith .50 cal double action he bought recently out to the range. CANT WAIT!!!!)

Well at least we agree on something!


Happy shooting!

 

[local 12 proud]

I'm probably gonna regret this, but I gotta ask: Why arent they getting paid for their tickets, and why would they work in this position in the first place? I humbly put my "Ignorant Scab" hat on for this one.

Because the TWU (Totally Worthless Union) signed off on this debacle with the threat of outsourcing.

why the hell would someone fly jets for $16,000 G's a year?

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

What the hell are you talking about man? It always rest's on the mechanic's shoulders. you/they are the ones who signed off the corrective action.

Your a GD Liar to state that on occasion aircraft maintenance requires just winging it without the benefit of reference material.
Im not talking about Ma & Pa's cropduster, Im talking civilian transportation.

You are f..king dangerous SCAB!

Again , I believe you may have misquoted me. Yes, the textbook, faa approved answere is "YES, here is my reference material." Hell, I beat that into these mechs all the times. There are times, albiet rare, that you may not have the resources available to comply fully. I agree, however, that such situations should NEVER occur in organizations such as ours. The resources are there, and ya damn well beter use them!
I guess may not have been very clear, but I was refering not so much to a specific maint. action such as tq values, or solid vs blind rivet, so much as overall command decisions. There have been times in my career where I had to make the decision, in the field, on the spot, with no back up. I had to weigh the risks against the gains. If it was a safety risk for monetary gain...no brainer, the birds down. If it was a career risk against the completion of the mission, again no brainer. Mission comes first.
If it was a grey area, with no clear risk vs no clear gain, well Ya make that call when ya come to it.
You are right regarding Mom and Pop operations..the times I spoke of have all been either in the Corps, or working for smaller outfits that lacked our support capabilities. (I gotta admit, I could get spoiled working with this much backup )
In regards to being dangerous, well its been said, (by me, more oft than not)that I am MOSTLY harmless. (with all due apologies to Douglas Adams, of course

Because the TWU (Totally Worthless Union) signed off on this debacle with the threat of outsourcing.

why the hell would someone fly jets for $16,000 G's a year?

MY GOD, ARE YOU SERIOUS?

 

[BeenThereDoneThat]

I am trying to compile a list of AMT pay rates (starting and top out) for each of the airlines. I figure posting on each airline forum is the quickest and easiest way to get the information. Once I compile the list, I will post it for all to see. If anyone can help me out, I would appreciate it.

So far I have the hourly rate for the following:

AIRLINE START/ TOP OUT
Air Tran: $16.25/ $30.25
American: $14.74/ $27.20
America West: $15.87/ $23.35
Northwest: $15.92/ $27.08
Wal-mart Greeter: $8.00/

Still a lot of airlines to go. Appreciate the help.

Could start another thread about the AMT, A&P, OSM titles.
This has been interesting to say the least. A lot of comments that I wanted to jump in and give my thoughts, but I wanted to keep on the original intent.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

So far I have the hourly rate for the following:

AIRLINE START/ TOP OUT
Air Tran: $16.25/ $30.25
American: $14.74/ $27.20
America West: $15.87/ $23.35
Northwest: $15.92/ $27.08
Wal-mart Greeter: $8.00/

Still a lot of airlines to go. Appreciate the help.

Could start another thread about the AMT, A&P, OSM titles.
This has been interesting to say the least. A lot of comments that I wanted to jump in and give my thoughts, but I wanted to keep on the original intent.

Could you clarify a bit?

I think Americans "all-in" top out is higher than $27.20

 

[AMFAMAN]

Could you clarify a bit?

I think Americans "all-in" top out is higher than $27.20

As of today, a topped out AMT(A&P)at AA makes $31.39/hr all in, but you can deduct another $1 or so an hour for medical and prefunding retirement medical. Line AMT(A&P) makes $31.94. You can forget about shift or length of service premimums - gone.

 

[Bob Owens]

As of today, a topped out AMT(A&P)at AA makes $31.39/hr all in, but you can deduct another $1 or so an hour for medical and prefunding retirement medical. Line AMT(A&P) makes $31.94. You can forget about shift or length of service premimums - gone.

By the same token you would have to add about $3/hr to those carriers that did not lose Holiday pay, and a week of vacation, or deduct it from the AA figure, if you want to compare.

Just in Holiday pay alone my gross pay went down $4000, or just less than $2/hr.

Overhaul raped the line guys with that concession, they just have to work five additional days per year that they would have had off with pay or $1200, the line guys lost $4000 vs $1200 for OH.