APA sues AA, claiming 1113 does not apply to "expired" CBA

[Buck]

Personal opinion... This will end badly for APA... I agree it may lead to a rebuke, but it will also wind up creating yet another piece of case law & precedent that boxes labor in, just as AFA did when going to court to engage in self-help following abrogation.

Then again, maybe they can get a ruling that the RLA shouldn't apply to airlines. Then everyone wins...

So the pilots become at will employees. How does that affect the new FAA rules for hours to the cockpit and then to the left seat?

And the pilots that are leaving whether for retirement or to work in China?

 

[TWU informer]

So the pilots become at will employees. How does that affect the new FAA rules for hours to the cockpit and then to the left seat?

And the pilots that are leaving whether for retirement or to work in China?

HUH? or I mean WTF?

 

[Buck]

HUH? or I mean WTF?

There is a shortage of pilots. Many are retiring and those that cannot get to the Captain's seat with less than 14 years are looking for work in China where the pay for a Captain is higher and in a shorter time.
The FAA has also stated that they will require 1500 more he's just to get the the cockpit of a carrier.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So the pilots become at will employees. How does that affect the new FAA rules for hours to the cockpit and then to the left seat?

Not one bit. Even bankruptcy doesn't overrule the FAA. As a side note, the proposed new FO requirements will affect the small carriers more than it will the big carriers. Rarely does a big carrier need to drop the experience requirement for new hires to as low as 250 hours to get enough applicants, but nearly every time the big airlines are hiring the RJ operators do.

And the pilots that are leaving whether for retirement or to work in China?

Pilots leaving for retirement or to work overseas don't come under the FAA rules unless they fly to/from the U.S. But since it appears that those leaving for jobs overseas are primarily captains they already meet the proposed new FO experience requirements.

I think it's pretty much agreed that the new flight/duty/rest requirements will require more pilots when they go into effect in 2014. How many more is the question.

Jim

 

[john john]

Personal opinion... This will end badly for APA... I agree it may lead to a rebuke, but it will also wind up creating yet another piece of case law & precedent that boxes labor in, just as AFA did when going to court to engage in self-help following abrogation.

Then again, maybe they can get a ruling that the RLA shouldn't apply to airlines. Then everyone wins...

What were the bases of the court decision against NW AFA that disallow self-help
So if no bargaining agreement between the APA and company exists and the court rules this way …no self-help under RLA
So if a bargaining agreement between the APA and company exists and the court rules this way APA can seek self-help under RLA
Does a contract exist that’s been certified by the National Mediation Board?

 

[eolesen]

The FAA has also stated that they will require 1500 more he's just to get the the cockpit of a carrier.

Partly true -- 750 hours of military or 1000 hours and a bachelors in flight will also get you into the cockpit with the new rules. 1500 is for the guy who simply goes thru flight training on their own dime...

Regionals are going to take it hard on this. It also rules out the possibility of doing an ab inito program like what some foreign carriers have done in the past. It is also going to decimate the CFI ranks, creating a further problem down the line... Not very well thought out in some regards...

 

[Buck]

Not one bit. Even bankruptcy doesn't overrule the FAA. As a side note, the proposed new FO requirements will affect the small carriers more than it will the big carriers. Rarely does a big carrier need to drop the experience requirement for new hires to as low as 250 hours to get enough applicants, but nearly every time the big airlines are hiring the RJ operators do.
I thought I read it was FO's looking to get left seat qualified in a shorter time frame. Since they are not able to get to the left seat in less than 14 yrs, they are seeking employment elsewhere.


Pilots leaving for retirement or to work overseas don't come under the FAA rules unless they fly to/from the U.S. But since it appears that those leaving for jobs overseas are primarily captains they already meet the proposed new FO experience requirements.

I think it's pretty much agreed that the new flight/duty/rest requirements will require more pilots when they go into effect in 2014. How many more is the question.

Jim

http://www.google.com/gwt/x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.minyanville.com/dailyfeed/2012/02/28/us-pilots-fly-to-china/&wsi=3630c1cab89f995d&ei=V3NNT5eSB4iMxQKAvJzxBQ&wsc=bf

 

[johnny kat]

Anyone remember Eastern Airlines?

 

[BoeingBoy]

So if no bargaining agreement between the APA and company exist and the court rules this way …no self-help under RLA

Good grief, think about what you're saying. If there is no contract then those employees are "at will" employees who individually have "self help" (although it's not called self help) - they can quit if they don't like what AA is willing to offer. But "at will" employees have no right to strike or engage in other group self help.

So if a bargaining agreement between the APA and company exist and the court rules this way APA can seek self-help under RLA

How many times have you been told that bankruptcy law and court rulings trump the NMB is some cases. Bankruptcy law allows a company to abrogate contracts after following certain procedures and convincing the judge that abrogation is necessary to the survival of the company - it doesn't matter what the NMB says. The Appeals Court ruling says that employees can't engage in self-help after their contract is abrogated - it doesn't matter what the NMB says. In bankruptcy, abrogating contracts isn't called self-help by either side - that a NMB term. Chapter 11 bankruptcy is all about having the company survive so the unsecured creditors can get the best return for the money they lost.

Does a contract exist that been certified by the National Mediation Board

No - the NMB doesn't certify contracts. It certifies a party to represent employee groups (class/craft) which then normally negotiates contracts for that group (AKA Section 6 negotiations). The NMB couldn't care less what's in the contract. But in bankruptcy some NMB rules go out the window. I can't figure out why that is so hard for you to understand.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Anyone remember Eastern Airlines?

People keep bringing EAL up, but there's a key distinction. EAL wasn't in bankruptcy and I believe it was the mechanics who were released to engage in self-help when an impasse was declared by the NMB mediator.

In contrast, AMR is in bankruptcy and no one will be released for self-help if contracts are abrogated.

Every airline that's been through bankruptcy has had people claiming that the employees wouldn't take the abuse and would shut down the airline. All of them are still in operation and most of the employees before the bankruptcy are still there doing their job.

Jim

 

[john john]

Good grief, think about what you're saying. If there is no contract then those employees are "at will" employees who individually have "self help" (although it's not called self help) - they can quit if they don't like what AA is willing to offer. But "at will" employees have no right to strike or engage in other group self help.

So you are saying they can stop working as a protest

 

[john john]

But in bankruptcy some NMB rules go out the window.

not all?

How many times have you been told that bankruptcy law and court rulings trump the NMB is some cases.

but not all?

No - the NMB doesn't certify contracts.

Jim

OK the parties (APA) have been certified?

 

[Mach85ER]

In contrast, AMR is in bankruptcy and no one will be released for self-help if contracts are abrogated.

BB, as it stands now, AMR is going to get a wildcat if they keep stonewalling APA.

Unlike Eastern when they went out, a good chunk of the pilots are going to get pay raises vs the 1113C term sheet if they walk.

China is offering 194K for a A320 CA. That's only the opening bid of an auction favoring the world pilot group.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So you are saying they can stop working as a protest

No, I said that individually they could quit. "Stop working" could include a strike of other collective job action but there is no "collective" for at will employees. And if they individually quit, there's no changing their mind a month later.

What APA is trying to do is argue both sides of the coin - there's no contract, but AA must maintain the status quo as if there were a contract.

Jim

 

[john john]

What APA is trying to do is argue both sides of the coin - there's no contract, but AA must maintain the status quo as if there were a contract.

Jim

Remember "in some cases."
Your beloved ALPA could take some lessons from APA