Article 4 Industry Comparable Pay rate

[FWAAA]

Unfortunately, there's a certain amount of truth in the statement--particularly, when applied to flight attendants.  There's one of ours who's been fired more than once for telling F/C passengers to go F*** themselves.  Thanks to the union and the arbitrator she still has her job.  Anyone can make a mistake, but more than once is a habit.

Sounds like "Orange Juice" Helen:
 
http://www.gadling.com/2009/12/12/galley-gossip-the-first-class-orange-juice-passenger-respond/
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-airlines-and-the-oj-incident-pr-fail/
 
The good news is that those bad apples are very rare.    

 

[iluvaa]

Now that hurts

if the shoes fits I guess it might hurt. But your a union die hard tell me what they've done for me in the last 17 years.

 

[Overspeed]

if the shoes fits I guess it might hurt. But your a union die hard tell me what they've done for me in the last 17 years.

 
I cannot say personally how they helped you but in general I believe that if the TWU was not here representing us we would have been worse off collectively. Individually I think that if AA had done what the other airlines did in BK back in 2003 with 17 years you may have hung on. We would have completed our first BK contract in 2009/2010 having had our pension frozen for six years already, no retiree medical, almost all airframe overhaul outsourced along with thousands more jobs lost than we have gone today. No AFW, no TUL AO. On the good side you and me would probably be making $40 hourly.

 

[Bob Owens]

All through negotiations we heard Don saying the same BS line about how we all have to work for much much less than our peers or half of us would be gone, thing is half are gone, and we are still working for much much less, especially when you factor in lost holidays and vacation. Please explain the thought process behind the claim that giving up a week of vacation saved jobs.  The fact is for every 50 guys that gave up a week it eliminated one more job. So when we had 18,000 mechanics that concessions eliminated over 350 jobs. They were out to give AA anything they wanted, and thanks to the YES voters they succeeded.
 
Notice how you carefully limit your claims to Airframe Overhaul, and leave out Powerplant, leave out the fact that UA still has a pretty big operation in SFO and so does Delta. Powerplant OH is where the big dollars are spent, thanks to you and your maintenance spend the only thing stopping AA from outsourcing almost all airframe OH is industry capacity, they have no place to send the work.
 
During bankruptcy the company admitted that they could not farm out all OH, or if they did they would have to pay such a high premium that they would not save any money, they had no intentions on eliminating any more than they did, even if we hadn't agreed to the worst deal in the industry.  What you and Don always leave out is that our average hourly labor costs in OH are in fact very low. In fact it was the lowest among all the legacies before 9-11 and remains the lowest cost among all the legacies, even prior to BK , sure TIMCO may be a little lower but Timco builds a profit into that labor and they charge the carrier more than what it costs them, more than what AA pays its in house. In their own words there was plenty of capacity out there to do wide body but narrowbody was "tight".
 
 
So in reality AA didn't need concessions from us at all, but Don and Jim made sure they got even more than they asked for, more than any other work group gave because we were the only group that was at the bottom of the industry going into BK, then like the cherry on top he threw in the "maintenance spend" cap instead of hours. Then on top of that we got the absolute worst deal in the company as far as Equity. We were still working for less than 2003 wages and had not received any increases in pay for three years, we did see plenty of increases in what it cost for Medical though, so in other words we took pay cuts. Then we paid three times as much as the pilots paid for Equity, the pilots received 1% of the company for every $23 million in concessions while we paid nearly $69 million for each 1%. The only group that paid more for Equity than we did was Non-union, but they also received annual raises while our rates were frozen, have more vacation and Holidays and sick time than we do and still get profit sharing, plus no doubt the $220 million was more fiction than fact, its not like there was anyone there to debate what the concessions were really worth. Our concessions, were no doubt undervalued, in other words we paid even more.
 
We paid three times more in concessions for equity than the pilots did. Pitiful.
 
Does anybody know why Don isn't back to work? One would think if he was proud of his handiwork he would be anxious to enjoy the fruits of his efforts.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
I cannot say personally how they helped you but in general I believe that if the TWU was not here representing us we would have been worse off collectively. Individually I think that if AA had done what the other airlines did in BK back in 2003 with 17 years you may have hung on. We would have completed our first BK contract in 2009/2010 having had our pension frozen for six years already, no retiree medical, almost all airframe overhaul outsourced along with thousands more jobs lost than we have gone today. No AFW, no TUL AO. On the good side you and me would probably be making $40 hourly.

you have no idea what you are saying.  In 2003, there was a  bankruptcy list that the company said they would go after if we did not agree to their concessions. The TWU pushed the concessions. That bankruptcy list was partially given to the company in 2003 concessions and beyond.  The rest of the list the company got in the 2012 concessions. So the company got everything they wanted from the bankruptcy list and more than any other airline!  We are the leading concessionary union regardless of what you try to spin. US Airways went through 2 bankruptcy's and their contract language is far superior to to the TWU.   Your claims are misrepresented and designed to mislead just like our negotiations.  

 

[Overspeed]

All through negotiations we heard Don saying the same BS line about how we all have to work for much much less than our peers or half of us would be gone, thing is half are gone, and we are still working for much much less, especially when you factor in lost holidays and vacation. Please explain the thought process behind the claim that giving up a week of vacation saved jobs.  The fact is for every 50 guys that gave up a week it eliminated one more job. So when we had 18,000 mechanics that concessions eliminated over 350 jobs. They were out to give AA anything they wanted, and thanks to the YES voters they succeeded.
 
Notice how you carefully limit your claims to Airframe Overhaul, and leave out Powerplant, leave out the fact that UA still has a pretty big operation in SFO and so does Delta. Powerplant OH is where the big dollars are spent, thanks to you and your maintenance spend the only thing stopping AA from outsourcing almost all airframe OH is industry capacity, they have no place to send the work.
 
During bankruptcy the company admitted that they could not farm out all OH, or if they did they would have to pay such a high premium that they would not save any money, they had no intentions on eliminating any more than they did, even if we hadn't agreed to the worst deal in the industry.  What you and Don always leave out is that our average hourly labor costs in OH are in fact very low. In fact it was the lowest among all the legacies before 9-11 and remains the lowest cost among all the legacies, even prior to BK , sure TIMCO may be a little lower but Timco builds a profit into that labor and they charge the carrier more than what it costs them, more than what AA pays its in house. In their own words there was plenty of capacity out there to do wide body but narrowbody was "tight".
 
 
So in reality AA didn't need concessions from us at all, but Don and Jim made sure they got even more than they asked for, more than any other work group gave because we were the only group that was at the bottom of the industry going into BK, then like the cherry on top he threw in the "maintenance spend" cap instead of hours. Then on top of that we got the absolute worst deal in the company as far as Equity. We were still working for less than 2003 wages and had not received any increases in pay for three years, we did see plenty of increases in what it cost for Medical though, so in other words we took pay cuts. Then we paid three times as much as the pilots paid for Equity, the pilots received 1% of the company for every $23 million in concessions while we paid nearly $69 million for each 1%. The only group that paid more for Equity than we did was Non-union, but they also received annual raises while our rates were frozen, have more vacation and Holidays and sick time than we do and still get profit sharing.
 
We paid three times more in concessions for equity than the pilots did. Pitiful.
 
Does anybody know why Don isn't back to work? One would think if he was proud of his handiwork he would be anxious to enjoy the fruits of his efforts.

 
You are lying again. You left out that he said to us that we either have to change the way we do things so we can ask for more money or get paid much less. Distortion is your hallmark.
 
Another distortion is that we had 18,000 and should still have 18,000 now. Big lie Bob. When the airline shrinks so does the required number of AMTs. You should know that because your knowledge of business is based on your ability to seeing Wall Street from your house. We still have more AMT jobs than any other airline per aircraft. That number will flucuate based on new aircraft deliveries and age of the fleet.
 
Powerplant can and has been outsourced by others and could have been and is now by AA. Maintenance spend is a good measure given no one really knows how much work we do based on hours. There is a lot of overhaul capacity, read the trades. http://aviationweek.com/mro/mros-strong-start-2014 The company was and did want to outsource more and you know that. They wanted to outsource BCs.
 
Don't you have Don's phone number? Call him? You are a big tough guy.

 

[Bob Owens]

if the shoes fits I guess it might hurt. But your a union die hard tell me what they've done for me in the last 17 years.

No he isn't, he is a fraud, listen carefully to what he is saying and you will find that he is as anti-union as can be. He defends the Anti-union stance that the TWU took under Jim Little, that's pretty much it. His message is the same exact message we hear and have heard for generations from those who hate unions, that workers should work for less, and if they do agree to work for less they will agree to employ more people. But the net result is those at the top get richer.

Next time you hear any debate on raising the minimum wage-a pro-union position even though most Union people earn more than minimum wage and listen to the arguments put forth by the anti-union people against it-its the same exact claim the Overspeed, Videtich, Little and all the other anti union people who ran the TWU had. Lower wages equals more jobs, and its a lie because jobs are driven by demand for a product. So whether you work for $20/hr or $40/hr if there isn't increased demand for your product they aren't going to keep people around they don't need. Sure there are stipulations that play into it such as demand may increase if lower wages allow lower prices and more people are willing to buy at the lower price but the fact is that the cost of air travel (fares plus everything else) has been increasing for nearly as long as our real wages have been declining, but basically that's it, demand drives jobs, not low wages.

 

[Overspeed]

you have no idea what you are saying.  In 2003, there was a  bankruptcy list that the company said they would go after if we did not agree to their concessions. The TWU pushed the concessions. That bankruptcy list was partially given to the company in 2003 concessions and beyond.  The rest of the list the company got in the 2012 concessions. So the company got everything they wanted from the bankruptcy list and more than any other airline!  We are the leading concessionary union regardless of what you try to spin. US Airways went through 2 bankruptcy's and their contract language is far superior to to the TWU.   Your claims are misrepresented and designed to mislead just like our negotiations.  

 
Harry Lombardo stated that the US/IAM members are working under a contract that is inferior to the TWU BK CBA.
 
The US IAM members have been receiving no pension credit after 2004, far lower wages since 2004, and suffered thousands of job losses far beyond the 2003 concessions than the TWU represented members at AA. I am sure anyone of them would have swapped places with you during the period following BK 1 or 2. You talk tough but really you know the TWU did a damn good job of keeping you over $30 and hour, with pension credit, continued retiree medical, and more work in-house than any other airline since the first BK was filed. You could have quit long ago and worked for WN, AS, or any other airlines that have a better contract according to you but you didn't. Why? Because you know you are lying and your "facts" fall apart when discussed openly and rationally.
 
You do know that AA lawyers used the very contract language you cite as superior as the reason why they needed to abrogate the TWU CBA? Read the submissions. AA wanted what all the airlines had stripped from their union members. AA wanted industry average outsourcing of which the TWU 2003 concessionary CBA was far below but you say the TWU scope langauge sucks. Even after BK the TWU CBA will allow far less work to go outside than any other CBA out there.
 
Chuck stick to your day job, contracting...no marriage counseling...no union organizer...no weak union officer who quits at the first sign of conflict...I mean AMT who is too busy organizing for AMFA to work on planes.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
You are lying again. You left out that he said to us that we either have to change the way we do things so we can ask for more money or get paid much less. Distortion is your hallmark.
 
Another distortion is that we had 18,000 and should still have 18,000 now. Big lie Bob. When the airline shrinks so does the required number of AMTs. You should know that because your knowledge of business is based on your ability to seeing Wall Street from your house. We still have more AMT jobs than any other airline per aircraft. That number will flucuate based on new aircraft deliveries and age of the fleet.
 
Powerplant can and has been outsourced by others and could have been and is now by AA. Maintenance spend is a good measure given no one really knows how much work we do based on hours. There is a lot of overhaul capacity, read the trades. http://aviationweek.com/mro/mros-strong-start-2014 The company was and did want to outsource more and you know that. They wanted to outsource BCs.
 
Don't you have Don's phone number? Call him? You are a big tough guy.

Overspeed I wish you could read before you post.  the article you cited says what Bob Owens is saying. There is a backlog for third party maintenance in overhaul; here is the quote
"Year-over-year backlogs picked up most in Europe and Asia – each up 8%-9% – while North American backlogs were up “ low single digits ,” the survey found. Backlog growth was strongest in engine , heavy maintenance , and modification work , and less pronounced in the components arena ".

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
Harry Lombardo stated that the US/IAM members are working under a contract that is inferior to the TWU BK CBA.
 
The US IAM members have been receiving no pension credit after 2004, far lower wages since 2004, and suffered thousands of job losses far beyond the 2003 concessions than the TWU represented members at AA. I am sure anyone of them would have swapped places with you during the period following BK 1 or 2. You talk tough but really you know the TWU did a damn good job of keeping you over $30 and hour, with pension credit, continued retiree medical, and more work in-house than any other airline since the first BK was filed. You could have quit long ago and worked for WN, AS, or any other airlines that have a better contract according to you but you didn't. Why? Because you know you are lying and your "facts" fall apart when discussed openly and rationally.
 
You do know that AA lawyers used the very contract language you cite as superior as the reason why they needed to abrogate the TWU CBA? Read the submissions. AA wanted what all the airlines had stripped from their union members. AA wanted industry average outsourcing of which the TWU 2003 concessionary CBA was far below but you say the TWU scope langauge sucks. Even after BK the TWU CBA will allow far less work to go outside than any other CBA out there.
 
Chuck stick to your day job, contracting...no marriage counseling...no union organizer...no weak union officer who quits at the first sign of conflict...I mean AMT who is too busy organizing for AMFA to work on planes.

You keep hiding behind an alias name as well as your alias information

 

[Chuck Schalk]

You keep hiding behind an alias name as well as your alias information

Overspeed,  you keep claiming what the TWU saved yet all the members of this union see is concession after concession after concessionary contract.  The proof is not in your cheap talk, the proof is in results and we are much worse off then we were 20 years ago.  The company is making record profits and the TWU could not see this coming in bankruptcy,  there were no arguements about the profits AA was going to make off our backs.  Only the TWU and Jim Little supporting the bankruptcy plan and merger.  You keep dreaming in your little world of what could have been and we all will live as of the results of it.

 

[Chuck Schalk]

 
 
 

 
overspeed your quote "You could have quit long ago and worked for WN, AS, or any other airlines that have a better contract according to you but you didn't."
 
That is exactly what the company told us "if you don't like it , quit"    Glad to see what a great union leader you are. Now i understand why you stick up for the company union In other words don't fix what is wrong, just leave
I hung on here at AA foolishly thinking the TWU would be forced to be a democractic union or face being replaced.  Knowing what i know now, I should have left.

 

[Bob Owens]

You are lying again. You left out that he said to us that we either have to change the way we do things so we can ask for more money or get paid much less. Distortion is your hallmark.

Maybe he said that when after we were locked into six years, that turned to 15 years, of concessions that were supposed to be only three with the early openers, and he was running around pushing to reward the company by increasing productivity (and eliminating more jobs)through PLI and JLT he said that, but then in negotiations when he asked about how we were going to capture "all the value" we gave the company through those programs Weel bluntly said "You're not, you're getting nothing, the oil companies got it". Every day fuel went up he would tell the committee how many millions more it would cost the company, however when fuel went down he would never say how much they would be saving. In Kansas City most certainly pushed for flat out concessions and not asking the company for anything, we were told we had price our labor so they could get outside work to fill the white spaces.
 

Another distortion is that we had 18,000 and should still have 18,000 now. Big lie Bob.
 

That's your big lie because I didn't say that, I said we lost half the guys who were here in 2003 anyway. I said that with 18000 guys giving up a week of vacation allowed them to eliminate over 350 more heads and asked you to explain how that concession saved jobs, well where is your explanation?

 

When the airline shrinks so does the required number of AMTs
 

.
Yes but as of 2009 the airline shrunk by 30% but our headcount shrunk but over 35% and that was with bringing more work back in house due to rising costs by 3p providers. Now our fleet is roughly the same size it was in 2009 but our headcount is down around 20% more.
 

Powerplant can and has been outsourced by others and could have been and is now by AA.
 

 
Yes I recall packing AA Airbus Engines to go to Europe and Canada for overhaul.

 
Maintenance spend is a good measure given no one really knows how much work we do based on hours. There is a lot of overhaul capacity, read the trades. http://aviationweek.com/mro/mros-strong-start-2014 The company was and did want to outsource more and you know that. They wanted to outsource BCs.
 

So if AA spends $1million on new parts they can outsource $350,000 in labor to install them. great plan with a new fleet coming in where they will be spending billions on parts. How much does one fan blade cost and what's the labor cost to install it?
 

Don't you have Don's phone number? Call him? You are a big tough guy
 

.
Actually I don't, it was with great pleasure that when I got the news I wouldn't need to have to go through him anymore I deleted it.

 

[Bob Owens]

Harry Lombardo stated that the US/IAM members are working under a contract that is inferior to the TWU BK CBA.

For Fleet, Stores and Title II that's true, the IAM contract is inferior, but for MX its not, they both suck.

Please explain why we had to pay $69 million for 1% of the new company and the pilots only had to pay $23 million.

Overspeed I wish you could read before you post.  the article you cited says what Bob Owens is saying. There is a backlog for third party maintenance in overhaul; here is the quote
"Year-over-year backlogs picked up most in Europe and Asia – each up 8%-9% – while North American backlogs were up “ low single digits ,” the survey found. Backlog growth was strongest in engine , heavy maintenance , and modification work , and less pronounced in the components arena ".[/size]

Exactly, and that is good news for MROS because it means they can charge more. In other words for AA, and others, outsourcing is even less appealing.

 

[Bob Owens]

overspeed your quote "[background=#fcfcfc]You could have quit long ago and worked for WN, AS, or any other airlines that have a better contract according to you but you didn't."[/background]

 


As I pointed out earlier, Overspeed is anti-union, he is only pro-TWU as long as they give AA everything they want. In other words,"If you don't like it quit", another glimpse into his true management mindset.