Best Machine For.............
- Thread starter Hueylover
- Start date
R22Captain
Member
- Jan 22, 2004
- 66
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Hey everyone.....I'm currently just a lowtime student but thought I'd add my $0.02
I'm currently training on the R22. snowedin is very correct on the number of safety issue's which robinson has addressed. And regarding the number of accidents and fatalities involving the R22, they are mainly private machines in the states flown by 100 hour pilots. They are a very difficult machine to fly...with that said...I suppose you will make a tranistion to a 206 easier...at least from my limited experience that's my observation from my own performance.
Regarding the FW issue. I am going to be bias due to the fact that I recently completed my FW commercial before coming here. But everyother buy and gal I train with here have said they would have atleast done their private just to learn circuit patterns and nav and radio procedures. Spitting out 4 minute transmitions trying to call final at 100 bucks an hour is better on the pocket book then 400+ an hour. :wacko:
I'm currently training on the R22. snowedin is very correct on the number of safety issue's which robinson has addressed. And regarding the number of accidents and fatalities involving the R22, they are mainly private machines in the states flown by 100 hour pilots. They are a very difficult machine to fly...with that said...I suppose you will make a tranistion to a 206 easier...at least from my limited experience that's my observation from my own performance.
Regarding the FW issue. I am going to be bias due to the fact that I recently completed my FW commercial before coming here. But everyother buy and gal I train with here have said they would have atleast done their private just to learn circuit patterns and nav and radio procedures. Spitting out 4 minute transmitions trying to call final at 100 bucks an hour is better on the pocket book then 400+ an hour. :wacko:
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #18
Well I thank you all for the comments. I figure that product loyalty plays a big part in many of your choices. Also, as was pointed out to me, the 300 had 1.5 million hours with only one fatality not 15 as i posted in the beginning. Still, a very impressive record.
Personnaly, i think the 300 is the way to go. A helicopter is a helicopter and none are really easy to fly. The R22 regardless of the modifications is still a very unstable and unsafe a/c, at least in the training role. As to the ol' 47? Well i reckon they ain't making them, they ain't flying them commercially, they are a dying breed.
But I thank you all again for your comments. Keep the shiny side up!
Huey....
Personnaly, i think the 300 is the way to go. A helicopter is a helicopter and none are really easy to fly. The R22 regardless of the modifications is still a very unstable and unsafe a/c, at least in the training role. As to the ol' 47? Well i reckon they ain't making them, they ain't flying them commercially, they are a dying breed.
But I thank you all again for your comments. Keep the shiny side up!
Huey....
I normally sit on the fence on most issues because personal opinion is just that and hard to influence unless face to face with the person. But the issue with training machines has sparked my interest. Hueylover has twice mentioned that the R22 is an unstable and unsafe helicopter in the training industry, now this could be taken that he doesn't have faith in the instructors teaching on the machine or that he will not have the faith that he will become a good enough pilot to fly the machine on his own, either of which don't bode well for a wannabe pilot. Now I'm not knocking Hueylover just the comment.
Instructors in Canada are some of the best in the world and regardless which machine you fly on to get your licence firstly look at the instructor and, if you get the chance, talk to some of the graduate and current students to get their feelings.
A future pilot shouldn't be influenced purely by the machine alone as many a graduate of flights schools have found work flying different machinery to what they trained on initially and even the machine they initially discarded in the first place.
What I am gettting at is, if you have the chance to visit several flight schools and talk to people, do so. Don't let the machine influence your decision as this is a long career if you do it right and you will undoubtly fly many more helicopters before you retire.
Again, this is a personal opinion and totally open for comment.
Instructors in Canada are some of the best in the world and regardless which machine you fly on to get your licence firstly look at the instructor and, if you get the chance, talk to some of the graduate and current students to get their feelings.
A future pilot shouldn't be influenced purely by the machine alone as many a graduate of flights schools have found work flying different machinery to what they trained on initially and even the machine they initially discarded in the first place.
What I am gettting at is, if you have the chance to visit several flight schools and talk to people, do so. Don't let the machine influence your decision as this is a long career if you do it right and you will undoubtly fly many more helicopters before you retire.
Again, this is a personal opinion and totally open for comment.
Jammed left
Member
- Mar 12, 2003
- 24
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Looking back at the different opinions on this one, I think it becomes clear that there are a couple of different things to consider when one asks what is the best machine to train on. Cost, ease of flying, because it flys like another machine....all reasons to pick one over the other....I probably don't need to say it, but the on the decision on where to train...the type of machine that a school uses is a little bit further down the list than some other considerations that are well documented in other places
Having said that...I will throw my hat into the ring. I agree with some of the others that a private f/w license is money well spent....even the recreational license will do the job. As well as knowledege about flight, air law..etc. the simple things like comfort working the radios in a controlled environment, allows a trainee to spend more time focusig learning to fly the helicopter. Basically it provides some comfort in the training environment.
As for machines....well I like the 22....I know I may stand alone on this but I think that while the flying is a little more difficult in the 22, it has more check marks in the list of things that I would want in a training machine than the others. It is a reliable machine...but like snowedin says that has been well addressed....years ago.
I don't really know much about the 300 except there are a lot more job opportunities available to fresh low time pilots in the R22 than the 300. The R22 is used a great deal by several companies that do hire low time people...the 300, while it may be used commercially, it is not as nearly widespread as the 22. That makes, in my opinion, a 22 endorsement a valuable commodity for the young pilot who is looking to be employable after training.
As for it being more difficult to fly....well no one told me that before i started training, and I didn't know until I flew a 206, and by that time, the 22 wasn't a harder machine to fly...the 206 was an easier machine to fly...it's all about what you know at the time ..i think
my 2 cents
Having said that...I will throw my hat into the ring. I agree with some of the others that a private f/w license is money well spent....even the recreational license will do the job. As well as knowledege about flight, air law..etc. the simple things like comfort working the radios in a controlled environment, allows a trainee to spend more time focusig learning to fly the helicopter. Basically it provides some comfort in the training environment.
As for machines....well I like the 22....I know I may stand alone on this but I think that while the flying is a little more difficult in the 22, it has more check marks in the list of things that I would want in a training machine than the others. It is a reliable machine...but like snowedin says that has been well addressed....years ago.
I don't really know much about the 300 except there are a lot more job opportunities available to fresh low time pilots in the R22 than the 300. The R22 is used a great deal by several companies that do hire low time people...the 300, while it may be used commercially, it is not as nearly widespread as the 22. That makes, in my opinion, a 22 endorsement a valuable commodity for the young pilot who is looking to be employable after training.
As for it being more difficult to fly....well no one told me that before i started training, and I didn't know until I flew a 206, and by that time, the 22 wasn't a harder machine to fly...the 206 was an easier machine to fly...it's all about what you know at the time ..i think
my 2 cents
412, did I miss your mentioning that you trained on 47's and are now teaching on 300's? Does your memory stretch far enough to make an objective comparison?
This question has been bandied about so many times I'm reminded of Frank Sinatra's old quote, "Whatever get's me through the night, baby."
Whatever ship you trained on is usually the best, and whatever one gets you through will do just fine, thanks. B)
This question has been bandied about so many times I'm reminded of Frank Sinatra's old quote, "Whatever get's me through the night, baby."
Whatever ship you trained on is usually the best, and whatever one gets you through will do just fine, thanks. B)
Dee Dub Y'a,
How are y'a ol'boy? Haven't seen your mug in this neck of the woods in a while.
Good to have you back B)
Cheers
R
Never mind........read your other post.
Carry on, didn't want to highjack the thread.......should have sent a PM.....dont want to make anyone mad and get the sticks off the ice again.....my apologies.
R
How are y'a ol'boy? Haven't seen your mug in this neck of the woods in a while.
Good to have you back B)
Cheers
R
Never mind........read your other post.
Carry on, didn't want to highjack the thread.......should have sent a PM.....dont want to make anyone mad and get the sticks off the ice again.....my apologies.
R
hey downwash,
great to see you back. actually my 100 hours of training was 60 hours R22; 15 hrs 47 and 15 hrs on 206. did NOT like the 22 at all. 47 is a stable platform easy to fly with the stabilizers and all and the 206, well that turbine had me so excited i.....uh ..um ...nevermind..............
the 300 is a great machine for training. stable yet complex (i.e. trim) also the point i really like is one can let the students get to the point were they see their errors rather than having to snatch control too soon.
i also like the fact that the 300 (and 47) are NOT governed. it amazes me the amount of high time guys out there that have trouble maintaining rpm when the governor is switched to manual on a turbine.............
yes, it's true that operators are using 22's and 44's more than 300's but i feel that will change soon. we have been doing cost comparisions and are finding that when factoring everything the hourly costs are just about the same possibly favouring the 300!
and finally, true, you are always loyal to the machine that you trained on cuz let's face it..........
everyone still thinks fondly of the one that "popped our cherry"
great to see you back. actually my 100 hours of training was 60 hours R22; 15 hrs 47 and 15 hrs on 206. did NOT like the 22 at all. 47 is a stable platform easy to fly with the stabilizers and all and the 206, well that turbine had me so excited i.....uh ..um ...nevermind..............
the 300 is a great machine for training. stable yet complex (i.e. trim) also the point i really like is one can let the students get to the point were they see their errors rather than having to snatch control too soon.
i also like the fact that the 300 (and 47) are NOT governed. it amazes me the amount of high time guys out there that have trouble maintaining rpm when the governor is switched to manual on a turbine.............
yes, it's true that operators are using 22's and 44's more than 300's but i feel that will change soon. we have been doing cost comparisions and are finding that when factoring everything the hourly costs are just about the same possibly favouring the 300!
and finally, true, you are always loyal to the machine that you trained on cuz let's face it..........
everyone still thinks fondly of the one that "popped our cherry"
SMALL MOVEMENTS
Newbie
- Mar 14, 2004
- 1
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By the way "412driver", your 100 hours, as told by you, consisted of 60 hours R22, 15 hours Bell 47 and 15 hours Bell 206. This makes a total of 90 hours. I hope only your counting is bad...
According to the Jan/Feb/Mar 2004 issue of the "HELICOPTERS" magazine the 2004 operators directory lists a total of
11 Bell 47's
21 Hughes/Schweizer 300's
47 Robinson R22's and
46 Robinson R44's.
These are facts and obviously the demands of Canadian operators, not a personal opinion.
SM
According to the Jan/Feb/Mar 2004 issue of the "HELICOPTERS" magazine the 2004 operators directory lists a total of
11 Bell 47's
21 Hughes/Schweizer 300's
47 Robinson R22's and
46 Robinson R44's.
These are facts and obviously the demands of Canadian operators, not a personal opinion.
SM
I don't want to start a war with you Hueylover but I think you're way off base with the R22. May I remind you that the Bell JetRanger was dubbed the "Deathranger" for many years after it first appeared on the market in the late 60's early 70's. We're talking about M/R blade bolts shearing, turbine wheels coming apart and rupturing fuel systems, and many other mechanical problems that were ironed out through the years.
And what about the Astars? Does the term "falling star" bring back any memories from the early 80's. The fact is that Jetrangers and Astars had a lot more mechanical problems than the R22'ever had and yet, nobody hesitates to climb in one of those.
The biggest problem with the R22 is that it has a low inertia rotor system which means if the engine quits, you better drop that pole first and ask questions later. Most of the accidents that happened in the early days of the R22 were due to poor training or poor decision making from the pilots.
If R22/R44 are so unsafe, why are they the highest selling helicopters in the world right now???
As far as picking a school for a wannabe pilot, you guys all had valid points but I think too much emphasis is being put on which school to attend and which instructor is going to teach you. The school and instructor won't make you a better pilot, only you can do that. Better schools will teach you better habits but they still can't turn an idiot into a Chuck Yeager!
When we hire low time pilots, we could give a sh-- where he/she trained!
First we see how well he/she flies on the check ride. We would rather hire a pilot that needs a little straightening out in terms of procedures and habits but demonstrates excellent natural ability to fly the a/c and shows good judgment making ability than someone who has all the procedures down pat but scares the bejesus out of you every time he/she is behind the cockpit.
Second, if we have to choose between two qualified pilots, we will choose the one that trained on the same type of helicopter that he will be flying for our company. In our case, it's the R22 and R44.
Before you go out and decide which school to train at, remember that no school in the world is going to turn you into a brilliant pilot. You either have a head on your shoulders or you don't!!
Also, consider what the odds are that your fist comercial job will be flying a Bell 47 or a Hughes (Schwitzer) 300. Pretty slim if you ask me!!!
I would rather hire a guy/girl that has 100hrs in the same type of A/C I'm going to want him to fly.
No offence Hueylover
And what about the Astars? Does the term "falling star" bring back any memories from the early 80's. The fact is that Jetrangers and Astars had a lot more mechanical problems than the R22'ever had and yet, nobody hesitates to climb in one of those.
The biggest problem with the R22 is that it has a low inertia rotor system which means if the engine quits, you better drop that pole first and ask questions later. Most of the accidents that happened in the early days of the R22 were due to poor training or poor decision making from the pilots.
If R22/R44 are so unsafe, why are they the highest selling helicopters in the world right now???
As far as picking a school for a wannabe pilot, you guys all had valid points but I think too much emphasis is being put on which school to attend and which instructor is going to teach you. The school and instructor won't make you a better pilot, only you can do that. Better schools will teach you better habits but they still can't turn an idiot into a Chuck Yeager!
When we hire low time pilots, we could give a sh-- where he/she trained!
First we see how well he/she flies on the check ride. We would rather hire a pilot that needs a little straightening out in terms of procedures and habits but demonstrates excellent natural ability to fly the a/c and shows good judgment making ability than someone who has all the procedures down pat but scares the bejesus out of you every time he/she is behind the cockpit.
Second, if we have to choose between two qualified pilots, we will choose the one that trained on the same type of helicopter that he will be flying for our company. In our case, it's the R22 and R44.
Before you go out and decide which school to train at, remember that no school in the world is going to turn you into a brilliant pilot. You either have a head on your shoulders or you don't!!
Also, consider what the odds are that your fist comercial job will be flying a Bell 47 or a Hughes (Schwitzer) 300. Pretty slim if you ask me!!!
I would rather hire a guy/girl that has 100hrs in the same type of A/C I'm going to want him to fly.
No offence Hueylover
Jetbox;
About 2 years ago I was giving a young fella a 206 endorsement, all his time(105 hours) were in a piston machine. He could fly ok but didn't seem to understand alot of what he was doing even though he did it ok. He could do a tranlating turn without any problem getting out of a hole, even though it wasn't needed, when asked why he did it he said that it was the only way the machine he trained in would get out of a confined area. After alot more ground school I asked him one day if his instructor spoke much with him while doing his training to which he answered, the man hardly spoke atall. I know which school he trained at and the name of the instructor. Will NEVER hire one of his students, doesn't matter if he is a friggin rocket scientist, if this young man wasn't paying for the endorsement it would have been a very short inaugral ride. Maybe you should care about where your new hires are trained at. If the robbie is so great and easy to fly then whats the problem with hiring someone who trained in a 300 if the 300 is harder than the robbie would be a cake walk. My company doesn't operate a piston but guess what, will probably hire someone who trained in one one day. Maybe that is why I would prefer someone trained in a turbine, but that is riduculous to expect of all new pilots. As you say look at the person first, but don't forget that garbage in = garbage out.
My point is that it is my opinion that the school and more so the instructor are more important than the type trained in.
As a side note the young man in question did aproximately ten hours with another intructor where he initially trained and that "person" spoke to him while they flew, the results were astounding. Being an instructor is one our industries most thankless jobs and these men and women should be respected and payed accordingly rather than go by way of the south, where alot of pilots build time instructing to get a "real Job". Nothing makes my blood boil more than this type of thinking. Think of the different stories how some pilots learned to do vertical reference and compare which place you'd want to send a pilot to for vr training. And don't think that the companies doing abinitio don't take shortcuts or do less thorough training because TC monitors them. HA!
Don't take offense but just cause the huey doey don't like robbies then that doesn't mean that all training companies using r22's are equal.
sc
About 2 years ago I was giving a young fella a 206 endorsement, all his time(105 hours) were in a piston machine. He could fly ok but didn't seem to understand alot of what he was doing even though he did it ok. He could do a tranlating turn without any problem getting out of a hole, even though it wasn't needed, when asked why he did it he said that it was the only way the machine he trained in would get out of a confined area. After alot more ground school I asked him one day if his instructor spoke much with him while doing his training to which he answered, the man hardly spoke atall. I know which school he trained at and the name of the instructor. Will NEVER hire one of his students, doesn't matter if he is a friggin rocket scientist, if this young man wasn't paying for the endorsement it would have been a very short inaugral ride. Maybe you should care about where your new hires are trained at. If the robbie is so great and easy to fly then whats the problem with hiring someone who trained in a 300 if the 300 is harder than the robbie would be a cake walk. My company doesn't operate a piston but guess what, will probably hire someone who trained in one one day. Maybe that is why I would prefer someone trained in a turbine, but that is riduculous to expect of all new pilots. As you say look at the person first, but don't forget that garbage in = garbage out.
My point is that it is my opinion that the school and more so the instructor are more important than the type trained in.
As a side note the young man in question did aproximately ten hours with another intructor where he initially trained and that "person" spoke to him while they flew, the results were astounding. Being an instructor is one our industries most thankless jobs and these men and women should be respected and payed accordingly rather than go by way of the south, where alot of pilots build time instructing to get a "real Job". Nothing makes my blood boil more than this type of thinking. Think of the different stories how some pilots learned to do vertical reference and compare which place you'd want to send a pilot to for vr training. And don't think that the companies doing abinitio don't take shortcuts or do less thorough training because TC monitors them. HA!
Don't take offense but just cause the huey doey don't like robbies then that doesn't mean that all training companies using r22's are equal.
sc
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #29
No offence taken gentlemen.
Everyone is allowed their opinion. I may have been too militant on my views of the R22 but then again, Frank Robinson himself said the R22 was NOT developed to be a trainer!!
Also, Skullcap brings up an excellent point as to schools and instructors. I also believe that one needs to look at instructor/student ratio's and instructor experience. Very vital points those.
Again, thank you all for your insights.
Hueylover
Everyone is allowed their opinion. I may have been too militant on my views of the R22 but then again, Frank Robinson himself said the R22 was NOT developed to be a trainer!!
Also, Skullcap brings up an excellent point as to schools and instructors. I also believe that one needs to look at instructor/student ratio's and instructor experience. Very vital points those.
Again, thank you all for your insights.
Hueylover
Small Movements and 412, some more 'stats.' A peek at the Canadian Aircraft Register reflects that there are 41 47's, 134 R22's, 96 R44's and 34 269/300's currently registered. I haven't found the numbers in 'Helicopters' too reliable, not through their fault, but because many companies don't update their information with the mag. :huh:
As usual, it's interesting to see how most factors come into play on any subject if we talk about it long enough. Wouldn't disagree with too much that's been said - just the degree of emphasis that sometimes accompanying it.
The perennial argument about whether it's better to train on a machine that's easy to fly, or a 'hard' one, only gets resolved in individual minds. I don't think anyone would argue that it it's probably desireable to get the best end product but, if that cuts out too many that would eventually be OK, are we achieving the best result. The latter is probably where we have been, and still are and, until ALL factors are addressed (particularly quality of instruction [including the experience factor], suitability of equipment, integrity of schools and staffs, and appropriateness of regulatory standards) we'll motor on the way we are, which could surely be better, but could easily be one hell of a lot worse. B)
As usual, it's interesting to see how most factors come into play on any subject if we talk about it long enough. Wouldn't disagree with too much that's been said - just the degree of emphasis that sometimes accompanying it.
The perennial argument about whether it's better to train on a machine that's easy to fly, or a 'hard' one, only gets resolved in individual minds. I don't think anyone would argue that it it's probably desireable to get the best end product but, if that cuts out too many that would eventually be OK, are we achieving the best result. The latter is probably where we have been, and still are and, until ALL factors are addressed (particularly quality of instruction [including the experience factor], suitability of equipment, integrity of schools and staffs, and appropriateness of regulatory standards) we'll motor on the way we are, which could surely be better, but could easily be one hell of a lot worse. B)
