Bob Owens visits airline analysts to argue labor's side of story

[WorldTraveler]

the obvious answer is to look at where AA is relative to its peers in each of the areas where are key parts of the contracts... not surprisingly, many of them are things the company is asking for. Doesn't mean that the unions should cave into everything the company is asking for but I would bet that most of the company "asks" are supported by disadvantages AA has relative to its peers.

 

[Birdman]

the obvious answer is to look at where AA is relative to its peers in each of the areas where are key parts of the contracts... not surprisingly, many of them are things the company is asking for. Doesn't mean that the unions should cave into everything the company is asking for but I would bet that most of the company "asks" are supported by disadvantages AA has relative to its peers.

I was asking for your opinion.

 

[Hopeful]

the obvious answer is to look at where AA is relative to its peers in each of the areas where are key parts of the contracts... not surprisingly, many of them are things the company is asking for. Doesn't mean that the unions should cave into everything the company is asking for but I would bet that most of the company "asks" are supported by disadvantages AA has relative to its peers.

Like I have stated before, AA should file ch. 11 already. They can force feed us new working conditions, but they can never STOP us from keeping that aircraft grounded until it is absolutely 100% airworthy.

They can't change employees' attitudes after screwing them.

So people like you can say " I TOLD YOU SO, ETC"

But employee morale will ultimately do more for AA than bankruptcy.

EAL tried it and PAN AM tried it.

 

[toroshark]

There is a limit to the amount of time that AA labor has to decide that the water coming into the ship will grow to a point that the vessel can no longer remain afloat... or to use the analogy I have used previously, the amount of blood lost will result in the body's inability for key systems to continue to operate.

I would suggest you and others think very hard about the implications for yourselves individually and collectively when key body systems can no longer function.

Sounds like a management troll is getting nervous that the NMB may actually consider releasing a work group or two in the future. Ease up Daddy Warbucks, the NMB is completely in your pocket.

 

[Birdman]

productivity and higher labor costs at AA relative to other network carriers.

bottom line is that it is safe to assume that most AA labor groups are not as productive as their peers at other airlines and that productivity , not average pay, is the biggest driver of AA's labor cost problems.

I've used AA's own figures per their negotiations website which may or may not be accurate.

-Pilots appear to be at or close to the top on wages for now but fly the least hours of all the carriers.
-F/A's are ranked 3rd (industry) with wages at 75% of WN but fly the least hours of all carriers. AA claims their f/a's have the highest block cost for hours flown in their "Total Cost" category.
-Fleet Service is ranked 2nd (industry) with wages at 80% of WN. Productivity is called Scope and is vaguely related to outsourcing.
-Stock Clerks are ranked 2nd (industry) with wages at 88% of WN. Scope same as above.
-Ground School Instructors are ranked 3rd (industry) with wages 96% of WN. Scope same as above.
-Simtechs are ranked 2nd (industry) with wages 93% of WN. Scope same as above.
-Dispatch is ranked 4th (industry) with wages 96% of WN and work the least hours yearly of any carrier.
-M & R mechanics are ranked 6th (industry) with wages at 77% of WN. Scope is related to outsourcing at 11.4% compared to 61.5% for WN. There is absolutely no proof outsourcing saves money.

None of these figures include disparities in benefits that AA mechanics or other TWU represented members endure. I don't know what Bob had to say to the Wall Street gang but he could certainly make a case for some parity on our part. As far as productivity at the Tulsa base major improvements could be made without any contract modifications if manAAgement would just do their jobs.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Have to agree with FWAAA: have they not paid you what was agreed? Provided benefits? Even their spring stock payouts were agreed to by your unions.

So how has AA not fulfilled its contractual obligations?

frequentflyer,

"Agreed"? By whom? The AMTs at AA? Surely you aren't that ignorant. The twu APPOINTED leadership agreed to concessions. I did not!

GO AMP!

 

[chris perry]

frequentflyer,

"Agreed"? By whom? The AMTs at AA? Surely you aren't that ignorant. The twu APPOINTED leadership agreed to concessions. I did not!

GO AMP!

We must not forget the lost pin numbers for the vote, was it 3300 or so? How could they have made a mistake? Simply put
AA style of gettin it done. Now they want us to trust them GOODLUCK!!!!

 

[eolesen]

We must not forget the lost pin numbers for the vote, was it 3300 or so? How could they have made a mistake? Simply put
AA style of gettin it done. Now they want us to trust them GOODLUCK!!!!

Well, I'm assuming that AA didn't know in advance who was going to vote which way, so statistically, odds are that the votes for the 3300 missing PINs would have probably been along the same lines as the recorded vote...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Sounds like a management troll is getting nervous that the NMB may actually consider releasing a work group or two in the future. Ease up Daddy Warbucks, the NMB is completely in your pocket.

I have no financial or any other interest in whether the NMB releases AA or not. My only interest is in seeing AA turn around to the benefit of all AA stakeholders, including many AA employees who I know.

I've used AA's own figures per their negotiations website which may or may not be accurate.

-Pilots appear to be at or close to the top on wages for now but fly the least hours of all the carriers.
-F/A's are ranked 3rd (industry) with wages at 75% of WN but fly the least hours of all carriers. AA claims their f/a's have the highest block cost for hours flown in their "Total Cost" category.
-Fleet Service is ranked 2nd (industry) with wages at 80% of WN. Productivity is called Scope and is vaguely related to outsourcing.
-Stock Clerks are ranked 2nd (industry) with wages at 88% of WN. Scope same as above.
-Ground School Instructors are ranked 3rd (industry) with wages 96% of WN. Scope same as above.
-Simtechs are ranked 2nd (industry) with wages 93% of WN. Scope same as above.
-Dispatch is ranked 4th (industry) with wages 96% of WN and work the least hours yearly of any carrier.
-M & R mechanics are ranked 6th (industry) with wages at 77% of WN. Scope is related to outsourcing at 11.4% compared to 61.5% for WN. There is absolutely no proof outsourcing saves money.

None of these figures include disparities in benefits that AA mechanics or other TWU represented members endure. I don't know what Bob had to say to the Wall Street gang but he could certainly make a case for some parity on our part. As far as productivity at the Tulsa base major improvements could be made without any contract modifications if manAAgement would just do their jobs.

Good information and I would be interested in digging more into this... but are these comparisons total wages and benefits per employee, wage scales (which don~t include any consideration of the seniority, or total labor expenses per workgroup which factors in productivity as well as benefit costs.
Also, WN is not a network airline; AA's peers are DL, UA/CO, and US and like it or not but that is who AA's wages will most closely be matched.
If AA or other network carriers obtain profits on levels comparable to WN, then it is likely that those labor groups will demand that AA or other network carriers align their way with WN's. Right now, WN operates a very different type of business and has a much longer track record of profits than any network carrier.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Well, I'm assuming that AA didn't know in advance who was going to vote which way, so statistically, odds are that the votes for the 3300 missing PINs would have probably been along the same lines as the recorded vote...

E:

Statistically speaking, how do the dead and retired normally vote?

 

[Birdman]

I have no financial or any other interest in whether the NMB releases AA or not. My only interest is in seeing AA turn around to the benefit of all AA stakeholders, including many AA employees who I know.

Good information and I would be interested in digging more into this... but are these comparisons total wages and benefits per employee, wage scales (which don~t include any consideration of the seniority, or total labor expenses per workgroup which factors in productivity as well as benefit costs.
Also, WN is not a network airline; AA's peers are DL, UA/CO, and US and like it or not but that is who AA's wages will most closely be matched.
If AA or other network carriers obtain profits on levels comparable to WN, then it is likely that those labor groups will demand that AA or other network carriers align their way with WN's. Right now, WN operates a very different type of business and has a much longer track record of profits than any network carrier.

Here is the link. http://www.aanegotiations.com/
You can see for yourself how AA has presented these figures. When WN was a nobody we we're always being compared to them so I see no reason to stop now. It's hard to compare our closest rivals considering they are in the middle of t/a ratifications. Why is it that several workgroups at AA have the privilege of being at or within a few percent of WN's wages and the slighted workgroups have no right to pursue the same?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Here is the link. http://www.aanegotiations.com/
You can see for yourself how AA has presented these figures. When WN was a nobody we we're always being compared to them so I see no reason to stop now. It's hard to compare our closest rivals considering they are in the middle of t/a ratifications. Why is it that several workgroups at AA have the privilege of being at or within a few percent of WN's wages and the slighted workgroups have no right to pursue the same?

thanks for the reminder... I have been there before but there is a lot of stale data. Just as I said, the sources of data to compare employee costs are DOT data (which is the last to come in and most dated), airline schedules, and contracts and wage scales.

As I also have noted before, the key difference between most AA groups and competitors is productivity. Even the company graphs as old as they are show that AA employees do not make much more than other network peers, or if they do, the salary difference is not nearly as significant as the differences in productivity.

Solving productivity problems doesn't mean that AA employees should take lots of paycuts; there does need to be a whole lot fewer AA employees for the size of the airline or there have to be significant enough concessions to allow the company to be able to profitably compete today with the expectation that productivity improvements will come later ie there must be some combination of pay cuts and productivity improvements over a period of time but the company cannot start growing or expanding until it can do so profitably which means pay rates are usually what has to come first; all of the carriers in bankruptcy took the approach of cutting pay for a short period of time to give the company a window to expand. I know full well that you all took cut in 2003 that the cmopany should have used to grow but they didn't take them - in some cases for key strategic reasons such as the fuel runup in 2005 - which is what sent DL and NW into BK and later each other's arms.
I have heard a lot of "we're not giving again" language and I am not sure what the solution is if you aren't willing to lay off some people to get productivity back in line and thus AA's costs down....

 

[TWU informer]

thanks for the reminder... I have been there before but there is a lot of stale data. Just as I said, the sources of data to compare employee costs are DOT data (which is the last to come in and most dated), airline schedules, and contracts and wage scales.

As I also have noted before, the key difference between most AA groups and competitors is productivity. Even the company graphs as old as they are show that AA employees do not make much more than other network peers, or if they do, the salary difference is not nearly as significant as the differences in productivity.

Solving productivity problems doesn't mean that AA employees should take lots of paycuts; there does need to be a whole lot fewer AA employees for the size of the airline or there have to be significant enough concessions to allow the company to be able to profitably compete today with the expectation that productivity improvements will come later ie there must be some combination of pay cuts and productivity improvements over a period of time but the company cannot start growing or expanding until it can do so profitably which means pay rates are usually what has to come first; all of the carriers in bankruptcy took the approach of cutting pay for a short period of time to give the company a window to expand. I know full well that you all took cut in 2003 that the cmopany should have used to grow but they didn't take them - in some cases for key strategic reasons such as the fuel runup in 2005 - which is what sent DL and NW into BK and later each other's arms.
I have heard a lot of "we're not giving again" language and I am not sure what the solution is if you aren't willing to lay off some people to get productivity back in line and thus AA's costs down....

Meanwhile AA Management is recalling ALL RIF TWU employees and preparing to hire over 1000.
SO much for fewer employees and that version of productivity improvement.

 

[eolesen]

Statistically speaking, how do the dead and retired normally vote?

That's easy: Democrat.

I'm from Chicago, and they taught us that in middle school.

 

[WorldTraveler]

That's easy: Democrat.

I'm from Chicago, and they taught us that in middle school.

haha... any other extracurricular lessons the Chicago public schools taugh you and that helped shape your political views, esp. with regard to labor?

or shall we say "Chicago area public schools"