DL FAs - You Gotta See This...

[Danny Campbell]

P.S. Guess what the LAST ITEM WE RESOLVED WAS in our bankruptcy negotiations in March 2006? It was an insistence by NWA Execs to get us to let go of our "Labor Protective Provisions" (Merger and Seniority protections) in Section 1 of our contract. NWA fought tooth and nail on this....so answer me this riddle. Why were they so aggressive in 2006 to get us to let go of the ONE THING that we now have going for us, going into a merger? Hmmm.....?

Thankfully - we held firm and still have the best LPPs in the industry.

 

[JakesWorld]

Danny

You and a lot of other people saw a DL/NW match up long before it happened. None of us know what the future holds and whatever is going to happen will happen. I know you will attack my next statement, If Delta had wanted to do this, it would have occurred a long time ago and most like it would have taken place during DL's BK reorginization. Also, on the issue of seniority integration I have spoken with many ALPA pilots and based on the numbers as they are today, date of hire is a much better deal for the NW F/A. I have mentioned this before, looking at years of service the NW F/A's have more F/A's junior to them than the DL F/A's do. Also, at DL to be in the top 50% you need 20 yrs of service, as bidding is all based on seniority it is much easier at NW to have 20 yrs and bid amongst the top 39% than at DL to bid with the top 50%. I know we will always disagree on the seniority issue. What I am wondering though is why is it when I posed the date of hire question to many DL activist early on in the campaign, I was told it is about the number of F/A's junior to you (20yr F/A at NW 61% jr to you DL 51% jr to you), according to that NW is more senior. Anyway, just another opinion.

P.S. Danny, you are one of a few true union activist left and believe in what unions are supposed stand for. If people like you were running these things it would make a difference for me and others in how we would vote. If unions don't begin to rethink how they conduct business or who they allow to conduct business, they will end up a thing of the past (this is not only AFA or F/A unions it is every union). Also, I found it odd that NW F/A's were contacting me to remind me to vote. They shared the outsourcing issue among other things meant to scare mey. It made me wonder, what do they have to gain by me voting yes....just a thought.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Jake:

You wrote "It made me wonder, what do they have to gain by me voting yes....just a thought"

Did you consider that maybe they are sincerely concerned with losing our international flying (from both carriers' perspective)???

You have to remember, Jake, that we just lived thru this attempt. It is real to us - not some imaginery boogeyman.

Recently, I talked to a former Delta supervisor (we'll call him 'Deepthroat" here). Deepthroat told me that Delta had plans to "mimic" the outsourcing plans that NWA proposed in 2005 and had even gone so far as to hire and indentify foreign nationals in Moscow, Africa, India and a few other locations. As soon as we reached a contract deal, Delta scratched the plan. Why, you may ask? Because Delta has traditionally needed to balance how "blatant" their actions/decisions are with the possible threat of you organizing. They couldn't move on something like this, unless they had an excuse (or competitive argument) to simulate. However, if we are the largest FA group in the country, with nearly 22,000 unrepresented FAs, all that changes and they would be quick to move on it. The worst part about it -- is that it would start a trend that would then impact the entire profession in our country.

 

[BABABOOY]

Jake:

Recently, I talked to a former Delta supervisor (we'll call him 'Deepthroat" here). Deepthroat told me that Delta had plans to "mimic" the outsourcing plans that NWA proposed in 2005 and had even gone so far as to hire and indentify foreign nationals in Moscow, Africa, India and a few other locations.

Didn't Delta already have Indian Foreign nationals working the Paris/Frankfurt to Chennai/Bombay flights in 2005?
AND Africa? you mean to tell me your "Source" felt that Delta was going to hire out of Ghanna to work the JFK trip? You believe that?

 

[Danny Campbell]

Bababooy:

Yes, absolutely I believe that - infact, that is exactly what the proposal at NWA looked like. Instead of U.S. based crews departing on 3 - 5 day trips from the U.S. the opposite rotation pairings would have been constructed. Flight crews from overseas would be working 3 - 5 day trips from countries where labor was dirt cheap, flying into the US (sometimes thru to other countries) and sometimes returning to their country of origin.

Does it sound "wild" to you? Probably. Was it an actual plan they had every intention of following thru with -- NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. Personally, I never knew that Delta had similar plans (to those at NWA) until I got an email from a former supervisor who asked to talk to me off the record about it. I have no reason to disbelief what he told me -- and he seemed geniunely concerned with the future of Delta FAs.

 

[Yankeestu]

I certainly do believe that out sourcing is a possibility, we have tried to make it work at DAL on several occassions. Fortunately when we had Polish FA's flying through Frankfurt, the German government had a real issue with this. Delta can be a little short sighted in their lack of knowlege and political history regarding other nations. So, they did away with that program. But they keep trying to make it work. Indian crews, India call centers handle reservations, Mexico works on our jets and cabin service along with some ramp service has been contracted out. And we feel immune because.......?

With that being said, how about the myriad of other reasons we need protections and a better compensation package. Our sick policy is a joke and I can't imagine anyone could disagree with a straight face.

I would rather be safe than sorry folks. A $43 tax deductible union dues is a small price to pay to insure a bit of security.

Honestly, I don't think any labor should be without representation.

"Exploitation without Representation"

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I certainly do believe that out sourcing is a possibility, we have tried to make it work at DAL on several occassions. Fortunately when we had Polish FA's flying through Frankfurt, the German government had a real issue with this. Delta can be a little short sighted in their lack of knowlege and political history regarding other nations. So, they did away with that program. But they keep trying to make it work. Indian crews, India call centers handle reservations, Mexico works on our jets and cabin service along with some ramp service has been contracted out. And we feel immune because.......?

With that being said, how about the myriad of other reasons we need protections and a better compensation package. Our sick policy is a joke and I can't imagine anyone could disagree with a straight face.

I would rather be safe than sorry folks. A $43 tax deductible union dues is a small price to pay to insure a bit of security.

Honestly, I don't think any labor should be without representation.

"Exploitation without Representation"

Yankeestu--
You're not going to change the minds of people like Jake. They believe Delta is a benevolent benefactor one minute, then if you call his beliefs into question, it's "whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen, can't do anything about it" the next minute. He has an absolute strict standard for AFA ( asking,"why didn't you campaign on outsourcing from the beginning?"), yet doesn't hold Delta up to the same standards. Many times questions go unanswered about the 2000 drug testing debaucle, poor sick leave (which you mentioned), lack of a real 3 day trip average (3 day trips worth 11 or 12 hours because of a 24hr layover, which amount to a pay cut esp for junior people, and let's not forget those same jr. people who fly those trips transiting a paid Holiday don't get the Holiday Pay if their 24hr l/o is on the exact holiday ie: 3day trip dept Wed before Thanksgiving w/ a 24 hr layover on Thanksgiving Day.).
These people are absolutely stupefying in their short-sightedness and oversimplification. They oversimplify by assuming all of us pro-AFA'ers are dyed in the wool, old-school, brick'n bat-union lovers.
I see union protection as a "necessary evil". ....just like auto and home insurance. I'm not planning(knock wood) to get into a wreck or have my house robbed or destroyed(knock again), but I STILL pay the montly premiums JUST IN CASE. I don't know if there will be outsourcing but with this Mgt team I don't want to take any chances. He doesn't see any "just in case". He sees Big Daddy Delta (the role of "Daddy Delta" has been played by many actors: Mullin, Grinstein, Anderson and for us Wibben, Corbin, Smith...a virtual revolving door) sittin' up on Va. Avenue calling his Delta children in one by one an' a luvin' on em and a rockin' em.
Bottom line: In my opinion--It's time to ignore these people. They are like houseflys when you're trying to get work done--distractions that we don't need right now.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Luke,
For what it's worth, for the VERY FIRST time, I believe you and your PRO Union group of present DL F/A's have a 50/50 chance of getting representation, on your own.

Should "you" come up a bit short, The NW kiddies, led by a VERY well versed Danny Cambell, WILL ride into Dodge, and the effort WILL SUCCEED, by leaps and bounds.

Having said the above, because your DL(only) effort stands a 50/50 chance on it's own, it is ABSOLUTELY...BEYOND COMPREHENSION, why even a pro DL F/A would not "back up his $$$ bet" with a yes vote,....for Only in the case that it DOES "fly", .....so a to have better seniority !!!!


looking even further down the road,.........................if the (new) DL F/a's + rampers go union, it will ONLY be a short period of time, before the (present) AMT's realize the Errors of their ways !!!!!

 

[Yankeestu]

Most FA that I talk to that aren't in favor of the unionization effort are typically uninformed and that is because a) they don't need the job or b.) children, household is all comsuming. or both.
They say things like, "I heard if I vote for AFA I will lose a week of vacation." Most often this is jumpseat information passed back and forth and without time or interest in seeking out the truth, they settle on what they heard and decide not to vote based on this one bit of incorrect information.

It is however perplexing when someone is on the pulse and they still aren't in favor.

***Yankeestu, scratches her head and walks out of the room**********

 

[AIRBORN1]

Most FA that I talk to that aren't in favor of the unionization effort are typically uninformed and that is because a) they don't need the job or b.) children, household is all comsuming. or both.
They say things like, "I heard if I vote for AFA I will lose a week of vacation." Most often this is jumpseat information passed back and forth and without time or interest in seeking out the truth, they settle on what they heard and decide not to vote based on this one bit of incorrect information.

It is however perplexing when someone is on the pulse and they still aren't in favor.

***Yankeestu, scratches her head and walks out of the room**********

We have AFA...we have a contract...our pay was lowered by approximately 30% (AFA and the company said it was 9%)...so union or no union...our pay apparently can be lowered. You'll have to go on history. How often have DAL f/a's pay been lowered in comparison to ours...or vice versa?
United, in spite of AFA, has lowered our pay. They have decreased our staffing. They have taken away our pensions. I do appreciate having a contract (for what it's worth) don't get me wrong....So you are better off voting A BIG NO>>>>> Union dues just went up at AFA $43.00 for what reasons... They didn't give us anything in bankruptcy. Like i said before.......The only people who want this UNION are the ones who want to get out of trips to do union work or feel like someone and get paid for it with your dues and not fly trips. Save your money and VOTE NO.. I am AFA with UAL and the union doesn't do sh-T Maybe another union would be better.. VOTE NO
GOOD LUCK.. SAve your money !

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

We have AFA...we have a contract...our pay was lowered by approximately 30% (AFA and the company said it was 9%)...so union or no union...our pay apparently can be lowered. You'll have to go on history. How often have DAL f/a's pay been lowered in comparison to ours...or vice versa?
United, in spite of AFA, has lowered our pay. They have decreased our staffing. They have taken away our pensions. I do appreciate having a contract (for what it's worth) don't get me wrong....So you are better off voting A BIG NO>>>>> Union dues just went up at AFA $43.00 for what reasons... They didn't give us anything in bankruptcy. Like i said before.......The only people who want this UNION are the ones who want to get out of trips to do union work or feel like someone and get paid for it with your dues and not fly trips. Save your money and VOTE NO.. I am AFA with UAL and the union doesn't do sh-T Maybe another union would be better.. VOTE NO
GOOD LUCK.. SAve your money !

OK, let me get this straight. You are appreciative of having a contract but you think DL FAs are better off voting no? I'm not following this logic.
Also, it sounds like you are unhappy with the union leaders that your group ELECTED. If so, vote them out during the next term. Don't you think UAL Mgt bares any of the responsibility for bargaining in good faith? Also, when company's fall under CH 11, they get away with a lot more than they should when it comes to dealing with their unions. Remember, this is the Bush Admin. and in 05 Congress was controlled by Republicans who are always more pro-business than pro-worker. The only way this will change is for the BK laws to change.


Finally, how come we don't hear these types of complaints from Alaska FAs? They seem to be very happy with AFA.

 

[JakesWorld]

Yankeestu--
You're not going to change the minds of people like Jake. They believe Delta is a benevolent benefactor one minute, then if you call his beliefs into question, it's "whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen, can't do anything about it" the next minute. He has an absolute strict standard for AFA ( asking,"why didn't you campaign on outsourcing from the beginning?"), yet doesn't hold Delta up to the same standards. Many times questions go unanswered about the 2000 drug testing debaucle, poor sick leave (which you mentioned), lack of a real 3 day trip average (3 day trips worth 11 or 12 hours because of a 24hr layover, which amount to a pay cut esp for junior people, and let's not forget those same jr. people who fly those trips transiting a paid Holiday don't get the Holiday Pay if their 24hr l/o is on the exact holiday ie: 3day trip dept Wed before Thanksgiving w/ a 24 hr layover on Thanksgiving Day.).
These people are absolutely stupefying in their short-sightedness and oversimplification. They oversimplify by assuming all of us pro-AFA'ers are dyed in the wool, old-school, brick'n bat-union lovers.
I see union protection as a "necessary evil". ....just like auto and home insurance. I'm not planning(knock wood) to get into a wreck or have my house robbed or destroyed(knock again), but I STILL pay the montly premiums JUST IN CASE. I don't know if there will be outsourcing but with this Mgt team I don't want to take any chances. He doesn't see any "just in case". He sees Big Daddy Delta (the role of "Daddy Delta" has been played by many actors: Mullin, Grinstein, Anderson and for us Wibben, Corbin, Smith...a virtual revolving door) sittin' up on Va. Avenue calling his Delta children in one by one an' a luvin' on em and a rockin' em.
Bottom line: In my opinion--It's time to ignore these people. They are like houseflys when you're trying to get work done--distractions that we don't need right now.

Luke

You definately have a way with words. Regarding standards its the other way around. If DL were to only give one side of the story...OH NO. However, let the AFA give a half truth or a twisted version of it,and well thats just the way it is. I've answered your questions about drug testing a couple of times and I don't believe we've ever discussed sick time. So our sick time does not roll over year to year. That can be looked at two ways, yes it can suck if you need the time and on the other hand those who don't use it are paid out for it at years end (maybe a fiscal year). Do all AFA or union carriers have holiday pay? No they dont ask ask an HP, NW, CO, or AA F/A about it. Then you talk about a real 3 day trip average. Do you realize that even with a contract a 3 day trip average is regarding duty periods only. It does not apply to layovers. A 3 day trip that has a day with no flying, layover only, the only paid it credit time. Take a look at a couple of contracts and not only AFA's, a duty day average is just that a "duty day" average.
You talk about how those not voting for AFA are shortsighted (among other things) in how we view pro AFAer's. Then you go on to say how we believe in "Daddy Delta' and so on...If anyone is doing the name calling or lumping people into one group, its you. Your comments are one of the bigger reasons I want no part of AFA. They will divide the F/A group and divide us from other work groups as well. There has always been something different about Delta F/A's and employees. Most of us enjoy our jobs, we get along, and we do our jobs. Ask around at other airlines and see how they feel. You will see that there is a lot of bitterness and anger at other carriers. I can still come to work and have a good time, I don't want to lose that. And Luke I am sorry that even though I am on the other side of the fence I have an opinion.

P.S.
Comparing AS to UA (or any airline is like comparing apples to oranges). AS has very little competition on a large portion of its network. Of course they are going to do better than most. How many times do you hear AS being compared to AA, CO, DL, NW, UA, or US? Never.

 

[BABABOOY]

We have AFA...we have a contract...our pay was lowered by approximately 30% (AFA and the company said it was 9%)...so union or no union...our pay apparently can be lowered. You'll have to go on history. How often have DAL f/a's pay been lowered in comparison to ours...or vice versa?
United, in spite of AFA, has lowered our pay. They have decreased our staffing. They have taken away our pensions. I do appreciate having a contract (for what it's worth) don't get me wrong....So you are better off voting A BIG NO>>>>> Union dues just went up at AFA $43.00 for what reasons... They didn't give us anything in bankruptcy. Like i said before.......The only people who want this UNION are the ones who want to get out of trips to do union work or feel like someone and get paid for it with your dues and not fly trips. Save your money and VOTE NO.. I am AFA with UAL and the union doesn't do sh-T Maybe another union would be better.. VOTE NO
GOOD LUCK.. SAve your money !

Uh oh You will be quickly called a "Plant" by the AFA supporters.
Many of them just can't believe that a large portion of their group are unhappy
with their situation.
As far as many Delta F/A's are concerned, they are NOT voting, NOT because they
are apathetic, but because they have done their research and they simply feel that it is the
AFA that is the Greater of two evils. We have looked into the history of the two and feel
the AFA can do no better that Delta Management with its flaws and all. And yes count me as one of them. God forbid that the answers that I come up with is NOT the AFA.
If the election results are NOT for the AFA, will the AFA get it? really get it that maybe its them? Or will they use the excuse that Delta F/A's are just dumb. stupid? Last time the vote was 27% and many of those
who voted Yes are no longer here. They will be lucky to get 38% this time.

Yes I jumped the fence. I know its hard to believe that there were actually fence sitters trying to get information from both sides. There were many of us who were. It was the AFA side that couldn't believe that people had real concerns and questions. You either believed everything they said or you were an "Other".
I didn't get that from Delta. And yes they still have an open door policy.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Most FA that I talk to that aren't in favor of the unionization effort are typically uninformed and that is because a) they don't need the job or b.) children, household is all comsuming. or both.
They say things like, "I heard if I vote for AFA I will lose a week of vacation." Most often this is jumpseat information passed back and forth and without time or interest in seeking out the truth, they settle on what they heard and decide not to vote based on this one bit of incorrect information.

It is however perplexing when someone is on the pulse and they still aren't in favor.

***Yankeestu, scratches her head and walks out of the room**********

Yes, and the company is hoping this APATHY will see them thru once again. I said long ago that one of the major hurdles in seeking representation is the " part -time, apathetic fa". Now with that being said, some of these anti-AFA people who post here (Cajun Flyer) say "sure, I'd like a union but definitely NOT AFA." In return I always ask them to update me on their efforts so far in getting that ball rolling. Answer: Zilch, Nada, Zero.
Look at the effort that's been put into this AFA campaign in trying to get apathetic people to wake up and take a stand. Can you imagine trying to start our own in-house?? No, people like this would rather chat on their cellphones in the lounge or when the service is over on the a/c, settle down to their People or US magazine. Then again, many of these same people don't know the differences between their 401K, their cash balance sum and their defined benefit plan pension. And of course, in a few months you're bound to hear one of them whine about Scheduling making a mistake, not granting them their pickup and that when they investigated the wrongdoing were told "they said the tape was lost." Oven doors slamming, cart shoved in sleeve hard, stomp out of galley...."OH look! the new IN STYLE !! I'll be up front." [forgets all about it]

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Luke

You definately have a way with words. Regarding standards its the other way around. If DL were to only give one side of the story...OH NO. However, let the AFA give a half truth or a twisted version of it,and well thats just the way it is. I've answered your questions about drug testing a couple of times and I don't believe we've ever discussed sick time. So our sick time does not roll over year to year. That can be looked at two ways, yes it can suck if you need the time and on the other hand those who don't use it are paid out for it at years end (maybe a fiscal year). Do all AFA or union carriers have holiday pay? No they dont ask ask an HP, NW, CO, or AA F/A about it. Then you talk about a real 3 day trip average. Do you realize that even with a contract a 3 day trip average is regarding duty periods only. It does not apply to layovers. A 3 day trip that has a day with no flying, layover only, the only paid it credit time. Take a look at a couple of contracts and not only AFA's, a duty day average is just that a "duty day" average.
You talk about how those not voting for AFA are shortsighted (among other things) in how we view pro AFAer's. Then you go on to say how we believe in "Daddy Delta' and so on...If anyone is doing the name calling or lumping people into one group, its you. Your comments are one of the bigger reasons I want no part of AFA. They will divide the F/A group and divide us from other work groups as well. There has always been something different about Delta F/A's and employees. Most of us enjoy our jobs, we get along, and we do our jobs. Ask around at other airlines and see how they feel. You will see that there is a lot of bitterness and anger at other carriers. I can still come to work and have a good time, I don't want to lose that. And Luke I am sorry that even though I am on the other side of the fence I have an opinion.

P.S.
Comparing AS to UA (or any airline is like comparing apples to oranges). AS has very little competition on a large portion of its network. Of course they are going to do better than most. How many times do you hear AS being compared to AA, CO, DL, NW, UA, or US? Never.

Jake, even though I am on the other side, I HAVE AN OPINION too and that's mine above. Maybe you should grow a thicker skin (as your friend Booy once suggested for me.). And I didn't say "we", I was talking about YOU. And you must trust Delta or you wouldn't hold the position that you do. So don't give me that "they called me names, that's why I want no part of AFA" baloney. There are no violins here, Jake. You don't want any part of AFA. Period. We get it. You've made a public message board stand and therefore, by doing that, we have the right to criticize that stand or agree with it. We are also entitled to say we believe your view is short-sighted. As Hillary said, "if you can't stand the heat.."
And how dare YOU lump all other unionized carriers together and say there is a lot of bitterness and anger there. That's where you buy into this Delta cult thing. There is plenty to go around for ALL airlines. The only difference is people like me are working for an even better working environment. Someone sitting next to you on the van whines, and does nothing about it.
And finally, AFA (which will be us, our leaders we elect) will not divide us; they will bring us together for one cause--improving FA pay and working conditions.
As far as holiday pay, show me another airline that has a 3 day trip worth 11 hours and I will believe you.
But I need proof. I've not heard of any.