DL FAs - You Gotta See This...

[Kev3188]

Luke

....So our sick time does not roll over year to year. That can be looked at two ways, yes it can suck if you need the time and on the other hand those who don't use it are paid out for it at years end (maybe a fiscal year).

So, since life is inherently risky, what happens when you need it, but don't have it (or don't have enough due to no rollover)?

 

[2BlacknBlue]

...it will ONLY be a short period of time, before the (present) AMT's realize the Errors of their ways !!!!!

This will never happen.

 

[JakesWorld]

As far as holiday pay, show me another airline that has a 3 day trip worth 11 hours and I will believe you.
But I need proof. I've not heard of any.

Take a look at these AA trips...they have a 5hr minimum day. Example 2 includes their pay credit, not a 5hr minimum day average. It is true ask your friends or those you meet on layovers about how they feel, there is a lot of bitterness out there. I am not saying there is none at DL, I am saying there is a LOT less bitterness and anger here than at other airlines. I also suggest you take a look at some of your previous post and comments you made in response to my post. I have not critisized you or made nasty comments toward you as you have directed toward me. Again, you know I am not voting for AFA, why is it wrong that those not voting voice there opinions as well as share some facts?

SEQ 537 ORIG DAILY 330.45 0.00 330.45
POSN 1 THRU 5
62 267 LAX 2020 HNL*2300 $QDF 5.40
5.40 7.10 30.40
62 270 HNL*0710 LAX*1535 $QBF 5.25
5.25 6.55 44.4EXP 78.31 1.42P 0.00N 11.05 0.00 11.05

SEQ 540 ORIG FRI 62.55 0.00 62.55
POSN 1 THRU 5
SPANISH OPERATION
62 238 LAX*2345 SJU*0920 $QSF 6.35
//SEE HIHTL// 6.35 8.05 24.00
62 239 SJU*1050 LAX*1520 $QLS 7.30
7.30 9.00 41.05
EXP 71.89 0.00P 0.00N 14.05 0.00 14.05
LAX WBM
05/01/08 05/31/08 68.40 0.00 68.40 1.22 6 2.29

SEQ 5098 ORIG FRI 51.15 12.24 63.39
POSN 1 THRU 8
23 F 32 LAX*1315 JFK*2150 $QLF 5.35
//SEE HIHTL// 5.35 6.50 36.55
23 S 3 JFK*1200 LAX*1450 $QLF 5.50
5.50 3.06F 7.05 50.50
EXP 76.25 0.00N 11.25 3.06 14.31

SEQ 5101 ORIG SAT ONLY 11.15 0.20 11.35
POSN 1 THRU 8
23 J 30 LAX*2330 JFK*0755 $QSF 5.25
//SEE HIHTL// 5.25 6.40 26.50
23 M 3 JFK*1200 LAX*1450 $QLF 5.50
5.50 0.20F 7.05 40.35
EXP 60.87 0.00N 11.15 0.20 11.35

 

[Wings]

I just don't understand the mentality of the DAL FAs who are anti-union and can't see what the "new" management of DAL will do to a combined FA group once this merger is approved - and shame on unionized FAs (from any carrier) who are advocating a "NO" vote .... easy for you to recommend no union protection when you aren't employed at DAL or NWA and are sitting on the sidelines with union protection at YOUR carrier!

As a NWA FA who is now looking at a fourth merger (originally AFA through North Central/Republic), I can tell you that without a union we all are going to regret the outcome of this vote if it fails.

As late as December '07/January '08 - NWA management and our MEC held "quality of life improvement" discussions to our current contract. The company told our union they would basically give us our previously negotiated (Teamsters) contract if our union would agree to unlimited outsourcing .... needless to say, our union walked out the door. What would be the point of taking back our old contract (with $50 + / hour for top wage earners) if the majority of our jobs would be outsourced.

When the NWA FAs try and convince all of the DAL FAs to vote for a union we are not trying to get a "leg up" on any of you. What we are trying to get through your heads is that WE know how this management team works - we have already worked under Richard Anderson as our CEO - and we know what they will do to all of us once this merger is approved with no union in place to protect everyone. If outsourcing wasn't their number one priority under the current economic climate, NWA would not have offered to give us back our best contract. And you can bet with oil at $120+/barrel, the "new" DAL will do whatever they have to do to contend with that economic reality when there is no union in place to stop them.

FA jobs aren't just about how much we make per hour and where we are placed on a seniority list. FAs should also take into account work rules, health and pension benefits, negotiated procedures in place regarding disciplinary issues, FMLA provisions, sick leave provisions, SCOPE and LPPs to protect our work group regarding outsourcing and the selling of assets in the event of a merger, and most importantly, the ability to NEGOTIATE a contract (rather than having management TELL us what the rules for our jobs will be on any given day). Does it really make any sense to have management negotiate contracts for themselves, but advocate that their own employees not protect themselves by doing the same thing? Without a negotiated contract - our workrules, benefits, and wages can change at any given time. In other words, we are subject to the whims of management.

This last week, NWA announced another buy-out for our FA group and DAL is going to hire more FAs. This is being done to reduce the number of NWA FAs to prevent an automatic "second" union vote via the NMB once the merger is approved (if the current AFA election fails). While DAL's management is advocating for a "wait and see" and then vote in the second union election - they know that if their current plan works - there won't be a second vote. Why many of the DAL FAs refuse to see this rhetoric as nothing more than a way to prevent the unionization of DAL FAs is beyond me.

Many of you who are junior say that you won't vote for a union because you want the ability to continue to fly your trips out of NYC - once outsourcing starts on a large scale - you won't have a job. So, what was the point of refusing to vote in a union to prevent the outsourcing of your jobs in the first place?

Wake up people .... the entire "combined" FA group is going to be completely screwed once this merger is approved if we don't have a union. Are the majority of DAL FAs so self-destructive that they are willing to take that chance?

If the DAL FAs fail to vote in AFA in this current election, our collective futures are gone. And once you see first-hand what management does to all of us after this merger is approved - then what? Are you all going to say "sorry - we had no idea management would really do this" .... an apology will be too little, too late, don't you think?

With AFA - you will have the ability to negotiate the very things that you all say you like into a contract. And once the merger is approved, together we can negotiate the best of both. It is a win-win situation for both sides in this merger.

At this point, all I can say is PLEASE vote for AFA to protect all of our jobs. NWA FAs and AFA activists from other carriers aren't being alarmists, lying to protect only the NWA group, or trying to pit one group against the other (DAL management is doing a good job all on their own in that respect).

I believe the majority of DAL and NWA FAs are cautiously excited about this merger - it is a way to hopefully protect our careers for years to come. But, we all need to start looking at this merger in terms of "WE" and not "ME" .... selfishness won't protect the majority. In fact, selfishness will no doubt come back to bite all of us in the butt if the majority of the DAL FAs continue to view this merger in that respect. Having the ability to negotiate a contract across the table from management IS the only way to protect all of us not only at the "new" DAL, but within the airline industry, in general.

Again, please start seeing this merger and DAL management's rhetoric for what it really is - and vote FOR AFA. I can assure you - you won't regret it!!

 

[Danny Campbell]

Wings:

Fortunately, I think many Delta FAs are listening to our experience. I think this flyer helps; http://www.deltaafa.org/aefiles/BetterTogetherFlyer1.pdf

I did, however, talk to a Delta FA yesterday who emphatically said "Our Delta would never outsource our jobs to foreign workers". I asked her if I could frame that statement for future reference (if they don't win their vote). After an hour conversation and after I sent her the actual proposals NWA laid on the table, she said she would think about it. Today, she sent me an email saying she voted for AFA for the sole purpose of "job security". So, I think there really are many Delta FAs that understand that their world is about to change whether they like it or not.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Take a look at these AA trips...they have a 5hr minimum day. Example 2 includes their pay credit, not a 5hr minimum day average. It is true ask your friends or those you meet on layovers about how they feel, there is a lot of bitterness out there. I am not saying there is none at DL, I am saying there is a LOT less bitterness and anger here than at other airlines. I also suggest you take a look at some of your previous post and comments you made in response to my post. I have not critisized you or made nasty comments toward you as you have directed toward me. Again, you know I am not voting for AFA, why is it wrong that those not voting voice there opinions as well as share some facts?

SEQ 537 ORIG DAILY 330.45 0.00 330.45
POSN 1 THRU 5
62 267 LAX 2020 HNL*2300 $QDF 5.40
5.40 7.10 30.40
62 270 HNL*0710 LAX*1535 $QBF 5.25
5.25 6.55 44.4EXP 78.31 1.42P 0.00N 11.05 0.00 11.05

SEQ 540 ORIG FRI 62.55 0.00 62.55
POSN 1 THRU 5
SPANISH OPERATION
62 238 LAX*2345 SJU*0920 $QSF 6.35
//SEE HIHTL// 6.35 8.05 24.00
62 239 SJU*1050 LAX*1520 $QLS 7.30
7.30 9.00 41.05
EXP 71.89 0.00P 0.00N 14.05 0.00 14.05
LAX WBM
05/01/08 05/31/08 68.40 0.00 68.40 1.22 6 2.29

SEQ 5098 ORIG FRI 51.15 12.24 63.39
POSN 1 THRU 8
23 F 32 LAX*1315 JFK*2150 $QLF 5.35
//SEE HIHTL// 5.35 6.50 36.55
23 S 3 JFK*1200 LAX*1450 $QLF 5.50
5.50 3.06F 7.05 50.50
EXP 76.25 0.00N 11.25 3.06 14.31

SEQ 5101 ORIG SAT ONLY 11.15 0.20 11.35
POSN 1 THRU 8
23 J 30 LAX*2330 JFK*0755 $QSF 5.25
//SEE HIHTL// 5.25 6.40 26.50
23 M 3 JFK*1200 LAX*1450 $QLF 5.50
5.50 0.20F 7.05 40.35
EXP 60.87 0.00N 11.15 0.20 11.35

This looks like Greek to me; could you or your AA friend put this into simpler terms/ a brief synopsis of the trip and its pay rate?
I don't have time to decipher this.
Finally, I have called you no names, Jake. That's a ploy. Saying you believe in Daddy Delta is just one way of saying you trust and believe in the company to be benevolent. That's not calling you a name. It's a fact that's based upon your many posts..that's your perogative. The one time I lost my cool, I publicly on this board apologized to you. But you don't mention that. You only mention the negative: the negative with me, the negative with AFA, the negative with union activists, the negative with Danny. You have an agenda. That's fine but you're wasting it here because I've already voted. You could be a little more diplomatic yourself. The AFA Delta FAs who have worked so hard (for no $) are good people. They just want something different than you want.
Now, back to your samples above: even if AA (like DL) pays their FAs nothing for 24hr layovers except per diem, I STILL don't think that it's proper. A 3 day trip should be paid at 14:15. Period. We, as Delta, are supposed to strive for the BEST, aren't we? Above industry standard, not below.

 

[JakesWorld]

This looks like Greek to me; could you or your AA friend put this into simpler terms/ a brief synopsis of the trip and its pay rate?
I don't have time to decipher this.
Finally, I have called you no names, Jake. That's a ploy. Saying you believe in Daddy Delta is just one way of saying you trust and believe in the company to be benevolent. That's not calling you a name. It's a fact that's based upon your many posts..that's your perogative. The one time I lost my cool, I publicly on this board apologized to you. But you don't mention that. You only mention the negative: the negative with me, the negative with AFA, the negative with union activists, the negative with Danny. You have an agenda. That's fine but you're wasting it here because I've already voted. You could be a little more diplomatic yourself. The AFA Delta FAs who have worked so hard (for no $) are good people. They just want something different than you want.
Now, back to your samples above: even if AA (like DL) pays their FAs nothing for 24hr layovers except per diem, I STILL don't think that it's proper. A 3 day trip should be paid at 14:15. Period. We, as Delta, are supposed to strive for the BEST, aren't we? Above industry standard, not below.

First trip is a 3 day paid at 11:05 (flying time only), 2nd trip 3 day paid at 14:05 (flying time only), the 3rd and 4th trips both have credit time, 1hr for 3 1/2 away from base. Maybe a 3 day trip will be paid at a minimum day, who knows, however DL is no different than other carriers right now. So many people I have flown with that are supporting AFA are wearing rose colored glasses in thinking what will happen if AFA is elected. I have heard everything from higher pay (pre 9/11), return of our pensions, retiree health care, no more reroutes, no more flying into days off, the end of executive compensation, etc. Each and everyone item has a price tag and there are things we have that are better than NW, UA, US, AA, and vice versa. It is a nice thing that the DL activist are doing this on their own time, I don't know any of them personally and they may very well be good people. At the same time these DL F/A's are the first to say DL is not telling us the truth and then go on to send out newsletters with less than factual information. I assume DL will be less than truthful at times and I have to check the facts myself, and this can be expected from anyones employer. However, when F/A's I work with spread misinformation that is a different story. More importantly I expect any labor union to be 100% honest with its members and not give partial facts, but give them the the entire story.

In the past 7 years how many F/A groups at union carriers stood up and said no? Three, AA, CO, and NW (twice before voting yes to receive the equity payment). US and UA both lost their pensions and voted yes on those agreements (not even a symbolic "No" vote). Each time their companies came back for more they voted yes, it did not even take a 2nd vote. I do not know what I would do if I were in their situation and I am just making a statement. We keep hearing about how important it is to be a part of the AFA community, and yet BK or not who began lowering the bar in the first place? AFA. AFA can spin it anyway they want, they represent too many airlines and in so cannot fairly represent them as individual airlines. Had it been another organization, I very well may have felt differently.

 

[700UW]

The FAs at US did not agree to eliminate their pensions, the Judge terminated the pension plans in bankrutpcy.

CO rejected concessions the first time, renegotiated and gave concessions the second time and they are not AFA, they are IAM.

Apparently you dont realize when a company files chapter 11 it leaves all the employees, union and non-union at a great disadvantage.

 

[Blackdog]

It's funny...it's sort of a like brainwashing...I ran into this very nice DL F/A over the weekend. We were in the same seniority; her 29 years with DL, me 28 years with NW. She asked me what I thought about the upcoming merger. I said I was excited but I hope that DL F/As vote in AFA so our transition would be a smooth one. She smiled and said she was anti-union and was encouraging all her colleagues to rip up their ballot. I asked her why and she said because Delta is a family and has always treated them fairly. And that a union would just come between management and the F/A group. I told her that DL mangament is on its way out and a new day is on the horizon...all NW management and you don't want to be anywhere near them without representation. She just smiled and said I look forward to seeing you out on the line. Big Smile. I hope she's right! (I doubt it)

 

[JakesWorld]

The FAs at US did not agree to eliminate their pensions, the Judge terminated the pension plans in bankrutpcy.

CO rejected concessions the first time, renegotiated and gave concessions the second time and they are not AFA, they are IAM.

Apparently you dont realize when a company files chapter 11 it leaves all the employees, union and non-union at a great disadvantage.

Actually US filed section 1114 in an attempt to terminate the pensions, this did not occur. On 01/05/05 the US F/A's ratified an agreement in a final vote of 2556 for and 1416 against, 71.5% of eligble F/A's voted.1 Flight Attendants voted, with 63.6 percent voting in favor of the contract. The final vote was 2556 for and 1416 against. I assume you work for US and should know the facts, and with this vote the US F/A's approved the agreement which included the loss of pensions.
I do realize that when in BK the employees are the lowest on the totem pole. The statement I was making was that only one AFA group, NW, stood up and made a statement. Both UA and US voted yes each and every time.
My point is that there are a lot of DL F/A's that seem to think we will get back everything we lost and it will happen overnight. It is clear that I am not voting for AFA, I am trying to educate people that it takes much longer than they think to reach an agreement, and that every item has a price tag on it and subject to negotiation. It's not as easy as some think it will be.
In this process AFA has made a lot of promises to the DL F/A's and BK or not have failed to follow through on these with the other airlines they represent. Again, this is just my opinion.

Blackdog: Where are the F/A's at NW getting their information that all of NW management is going to be running DL? It is just as easy for us to say that all DL managment will be running the combined company. Is this from the same article a few weeks ago that stated Checci and Wilson were on the NW and DL BOD? DL has a very unique culture across all employee groups and hopefully it will be here to stay. This is the same thing I mentioned in an earlier post. It seems as though most people at DL across the system are happy to come to work (not to say we don't have our bitter and angry people). Then when talking with people from other airlines there is so much anger, bitterness, and negativity. The fact is even if DL votes for AFA and negotiate a contract, we will not be making or have what we had in 2001. Those days are gone for everyone. This industry has changed forever and it will not go back to what it was 20 years ago. We either accept it or if not it might be best to move on.

 

[RobertD]

Things that make you say hmmm....

http://www.startribune.com/business/18510709.html

 

[BABABOOY]

Things that make you say hmmm....

http://www.startribune.com/business/18510709.html

Sounds like what Ron Allen recieved when he left, minus the Charity part.

 

[Blackdog]

Blackdog: Where are the F/A's at NW getting their information that all of NW management is going to be running DL? It is just as easy for us to say that all DL managment will be running the combined company. Is this from the same article a few weeks ago that stated Checci and Wilson were on the NW and DL BOD? DL has a very unique culture across all employee groups and hopefully it will be here to stay. This is the same thing I mentioned in an earlier post. It seems as though most people at DL across the system are happy to come to work (not to say we don't have our bitter and angry people). Then when talking with people from other airlines there is so much anger, bitterness, and negativity. The fact is even if DL votes for AFA and negotiate a contract, we will not be making or have what we had in 2001. Those days are gone for everyone. This industry has changed forever and it will not go back to what it was 20 years ago. We either accept it or if not it might be best to move on.

Jake: All I can say is I hope you're right....nothing would make me more happier than to have it the way you have it or had it before. The reason we all think that NW management is taking over (eventually) is that we've worked for Richard Anderson before and we've seen his tactics. All smiles up front and nice to deal with as long as there is no cost involved, otherwise you better watch out. He's sell his grandmother if it would mean another dollar in their coffers. Again...I hope it doesn't happen that way but don't be suprised.....

 

[PHLfa88]

First trip is a 3 day paid at 11:05 (flying time only), 2nd trip 3 day paid at 14:05 (flying time only), the 3rd and 4th trips both have credit time, 1hr for 3 1/2 away from base. Maybe a 3 day trip will be paid at a minimum day, who knows, however DL is no different than other carriers right now. So many people I have flown with that are supporting AFA are wearing rose colored glasses in thinking what will happen if AFA is elected. I have heard everything from higher pay (pre 9/11), return of our pensions, retiree health care, no more reroutes, no more flying into days off, the end of executive compensation, etc. Each and everyone item has a price tag and there are things we have that are better than NW, UA, US, AA, and vice versa. It is a nice thing that the DL activist are doing this on their own time, I don't know any of them personally and they may very well be good people. At the same time these DL F/A's are the first to say DL is not telling us the truth and then go on to send out newsletters with less than factual information. I assume DL will be less than truthful at times and I have to check the facts myself, and this can be expected from anyones employer. However, when F/A's I work with spread misinformation that is a different story. More importantly I expect any labor union to be 100% honest with its members and not give partial facts, but give them the the entire story.

In the past 7 years how many F/A groups at union carriers stood up and said no? Three, AA, CO, and NW (twice before voting yes to receive the equity payment). US and UA both lost their pensions and voted yes on those agreements (not even a symbolic "No" vote). Each time their companies came back for more they voted yes, it did not even take a 2nd vote. I do not know what I would do if I were in their situation and I am just making a statement. We keep hearing about how important it is to be a part of the AFA community, and yet BK or not who began lowering the bar in the first place? AFA. AFA can spin it anyway they want, they represent too many airlines and in so cannot fairly represent them as individual airlines. Had it been another organization, I very well may have felt differently.

And Everything That The Big "D" TOOK From You You Had NO Vote!! That's What it's All About!! A VOTE! You Seem To Like DADDY DELTA Not Giving You A Vote! And The "Rose Colored Glasses" Your Fellow F/A's You Say A Wearing? Maybe It's The Reflection Of All The Red Ties And Red Dresses!

 

[2BlacknBlue]

...so much for family. <_<


"By Retired Delta

May 5, 2008 1:41 PM

Dear Delta Employees,

As a DL Pension Plus retiree, DL and I had a signed contract. We were the first and only group of retirees' to have a contract. All other retirees' were dependent on DL's word that they would honor what they 'said' to each retirement group.

When DL management decided to go into bankruptcy, one of the first things DL did was attack retiree benefits. Thankfully, because of our contract, the DALRC was formed. They fought hard to protect at least 'some' of the benefits that had been guaranteed in our contract and to 'soften' the changes to other retirees' benefits.

Beware! Without a contract you are at the mercy of DL. Once again, you only have DL's word. And as thousands of retirees' have found out, DL's word means nothing. They have continually broken their promises to their retirees' and employees.

I was the typical 'Deltoid' who lived the 'DL Family'. Well folks, sorry to tell you, but the 'DL Family' is dead. This new DL is about what is best for the stockholders and upper management. It's time for you to start protecting yourself and your future."

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/busine...omment-58025503