ETB-UNION "OFFICE WORK" AND FAR 121.466/467

[airportman]

How many ETB trips are these people flying each month? Aren't they responsible for being in the office a certain amount of days/ hours per month? As long as they meet those requirements, can they use ETB? I think Pitbull said it equates to about 21 days a month in office? Well, that leaves 9 or 10 days free to fly ETB, correct? Am I missing something here? Why should they not have access to the ETB on those days off? I just don't understand that....
Thank you for any clarification....

That was the old thread the monderator locked because it took its course this one is about the F.A.R. and the union officers violating it.

ie: if a local president works m-r and then f 1/2 day and flys out on a intl trip that night he/she violates the FAR.

i called it work therefore it is paid.

thats what its about now the "SMOKING GUN"

 

[aredeeyou22]

That was the old thread the monderator locked because it took its course this one is about the F.A.R. and the union officers violating it.

ie: if a local president works m-r and then f 1/2 day and flys out on a intl trip that night he/she violates the FAR.

i called it work therefore it is paid.

thats what its about now the "SMOKING GUN"

So what if they work a few Saturdays a month (or even one Sat)? I know I called last month and got an officer on the line on a Saturday. Then, they can have the next Fri/Sat/Sun off? I mean, if they are putting in a combination of 21 days a month IN THE OFFICE, that would be acceptable?

 

[airportman]

So what if they work a few Saturdays a month (or even one Sat)? I know I called last month and got an officer on the line on a Saturday. Then, they can have the next Fri/Sat/Sun off? I mean, if they are putting in a combination of 21 days a month IN THE OFFICE, that would be acceptable?

ONCE MORE THIS IS ABOUT A FAR NOT JUST ETB.......it is not acceptable to bust an FAR.

 

[proudf/a]

I have a question for someone to ponder. Reserves have legality timelines to follow when trying to pick up an ETB trip. Does the reserve chair sitting on an AFA day they day before an ETB trip restricted to those same parameters?

When he puts in for a trip, the ETB desk checking for legalities sees that his is off the day prior to the trip for AFA. That doesn't mean he is off duty at midnight, means he is OFF. He is able to put in for trips that leave at 0 dark hundred an if he is scheduled for an AFA the day after the ETB trip, he can get in after the 1800 timeline. If this is the case, that puts him at a VERY unfair advantage when surfing the ETB for trips. I have issues with this one, if this is what is happening. It needs to be stopped NOW! Reserves in PHL should be screaming over this one.

 

[aredeeyou22]

ONCE MORE THIS IS ABOUT A FAR NOT JUST ETB.......it is not acceptable to bust an FAR.

If they have a Fri/Sat/Sun off from the office, and fly a 3day transatlantic trip departing Fri, how are they "busting" a FAR?

 

[airportman]

If they have a Fri/Sat/Sun off from the office, and fly a 3day transatlantic trip departing Fri, how are they "busting" a FAR?

If no office work they are not, however this is not what is going on.

 

[aredeeyou22]

If no office work they are not, however this is not what is going on.

So you say they are working half days then taking an int'l trip out? Your word against theirs, I am afraid.

I think we should all take a step back here for a moment and see how hard Union people work for their membership. Believe it. I highly doubt they are sitting in their offices looking for ways to "work the system" to their benefit. They are dealing with grievances, terminations, supervisory meetings, CONSTANT phone calls regarding contractual infractions on the part of the company, etc.... Take it from me, it is an incredibly thankless position. Before you make it your lifes work to bring AFA70 to its knees, make sure have all of your ducks in a row. You may need their assistance someday.

If they are putting in their 21 days in the office, be it weekends, weekdays or whatever, ETB your heart out, I say! Enjoy!

Thank you, AFA70, for your hard work and dedication to this membership.

 

[airportman]

So you say they are working half days then taking an int'l trip out? Your word against theirs, I am afraid.

I think we should all take a step back here for a moment and see how hard Union people work for their membership. Believe it. I highly doubt they are sitting in their offices looking for ways to "work the system" to their benefit. They are dealing with grievances, terminations, supervisory meetings, CONSTANT phone calls regarding contractual infractions on the part of the company, etc.... Take it from me, it is an incredibly thankless position. Before you make it your lifes work to bring AFA70 to its knees, make sure have all of your ducks in a row. You may need their assistance someday.

If they are putting in their 21 days in the office, be it weekends, weekdays or whatever, ETB your heart out, I say! Enjoy!

Thank you, AFA70, for your hard work and dedication to this membership.

Im afraid your WRONG......not my word against theirs.....hmm catcrew does provide a record of the trips and afa pay.......if there is afa in a schedule and an etb the same day its a FAR violation....so honey there is a papertrail.......


LIKE I SAID WAIT AND SEE THE FAA WAS NOTIFIED AND WILL INVESTIGATE...THEN THEY WILL FINE THEM CITE THEM AND COULD EVEN TAKE THERE LICENSE FROM THEM.......AND GUESS WHAT THE COMPANY SELF REPORTED THEN GO FIGURE......THE COMPANY DOES HAVE THE AFA/ETB/ RECORDS

HAVE A HAPPY DAY AND BE SURE UR DUCKS ARE IN A ROW

 

[hp_fa]

So you say they are working half days then taking an int'l trip out? Your word against theirs, I am afraid.

Perhaps, but perhaps not.

As PitBull has stated, the folks in the union who are pulling down flight loss pay for a full month's schedule owe a full month's worth of work to the folks paying their salary. Now, it is completely OK to work some flights to generate what in essence is overtime pay. However there are two problems that I see from what is posted here to what seems to be occurring.

First, it appears that the folk(s) getting flight loss pay are also flying three day trips a few times a month. Second, based on what has been posted, they seem to be able to routinely get trips that seemingly are not available to folks with similar seniority that work the line, whether it is using union paid days that show up as non-flying days to make themselves legal despite supposedly working in an office in the period before the flight or by having some form of access to these trips that others don't have access.

Honestly, the best way to really resolve the issue is for someone to complain to AFA National, let them look at all aspects of what all the parties claim is happening and all rationales as to it's legality, illegality and/or ethical appropraiteness and let them make a report and recommendations.

If the claims are unfounded they will say so. If there is a problem they will make the appropriate recommendations on how to rectify the problem.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Perhaps, but perhaps not.

As PitBull has stated, the folks in the union who are pulling down flight loss pay for a full month's schedule owe a full month's worth of work to the folks paying their salary. Now, it is completely OK to work some flights to generate what in essence is overtime pay. However there are two problems that I see from what is posted here to what seems to be occurring.

First, it appears that the folk(s) getting flight loss pay are also flying three day trips a few times a month. Second, based on what has been posted, they seem to be able to routinely get trips that seemingly are not available to folks with similar seniority that work the line, whether it is using union paid days that show up as non-flying days to make themselves legal despite supposedly working in an office in the period before the flight or by having some form of access to these trips that others don't have access.

Honestly, the best way to really resolve the issue is for someone to complain to AFA National, let them look at all aspects of what all the parties claim is happening and all rationales as to it's legality, illegality and/or ethical appropraiteness and let them make a report and recommendations.

If the claims are unfounded they will say so. If there is a problem they will make the appropriate recommendations on how to rectify the problem.

hp fa,

I agree 100%. If there is indeed wrongdoing, it should be dealt with fairly and swiftly.

The trips that are in question are being flown from the ETB, which is entirely first come- first serve, and is 100% irregardless of seniority. Whoever clicks first is the winner. The Union officers may not be subject to the same parameters as regular reserves,and why should they? If they are working in the office, it is a different schedule and that is just the nature of the job. Call it an advantage if you want, some would call it a disadvantage being in that position (!)....

Why is it a problem if they are flying 3 day trips? No one said they had to be in the office M-F, i thought the deal was 21 full days of office work per month (according to Pitbull). That said, they could work a Saturday one weekend, and then get the following Fri/Sat/Sun free from office work, which in turn would make them completely legal to work a transatlantic 3 day, correct? I mean am I missing something? As I have stated before, I know for a fact that it is possible to get an officer on the phone on a weekend. I would be concerned if they are not putting in their 21 days, however....

Let's let AFA National hash it out, I assume they have been contacted numerous times already. Surprising the MEC Pres has not addressed this blatant violation as well....

Thank you.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Sharky you sound a tad upset!
Let's see....threats, intimidation....I think this link might benefit you.

View attachment 5018

Nah, Sharky needs to sink his teeth into a memory http://archives.californiaaviation.org/airport/msg19781.html -- what a nightmare! Some times you gotta zip it, I guess that didn't sink in.

Eye

 

[airportman]

hp fa,

I agree 100%. If there is indeed wrongdoing, it should be dealt with fairly and swiftly.

The trips that are in question are being flown from the ETB, which is entirely first come- first serve, and is 100% irregardless of seniority. Whoever clicks first is the winner. The Union officers may not be subject to the same parameters as regular reserves,and why should they? If they are working in the office, it is a different schedule and that is just the nature of the job. Call it an advantage if you want, some would call it a disadvantage being in that position (!)....

Why is it a problem if they are flying 3 day trips? No one said they had to be in the office M-F, i thought the deal was 21 full days of office work per month (according to Pitbull). That said, they could work a Saturday one weekend, and then get the following Fri/Sat/Sun free from office work, which in turn would make them completely legal to work a transatlantic 3 day, correct? I mean am I missing something? As I have stated before, I know for a fact that it is possible to get an officer on the phone on a weekend. I would be concerned if they are not putting in their 21 days, however....

Let's let AFA National hash it out, I assume they have been contacted numerous times already. Surprising the MEC Pres has not addressed this blatant violation as well....

Thank you.

There is no problem with that. The problem is they are not doing that, they are flying an ETB trip the same day they do Office work.....that is a violation of the FAR. This isnt a what if topic.....this is a this IS what they are doing topic.......


.... he next one that says its my word against theirs please take the time and research it you WILL find what I did and trust me being on the inside helps but anyone can track it down and see it.....


Please read the FAR and NOTE the afa local 70 schedules and time in catcrew... takes a few minutes but can be done and you will come back with the answers and shocking awareness of what really goes on.

GREED,MANIPULATION,CORRUPTION,NO MORALS OR ETHICS

IT IS AMAZING THAT WE INTRUST THIS TYPE OF PERSON/S TO REPRESENT US.

 

[flytchick]

We had the same type of thing happening at West - our MEC president was doing the same thing + charging AFA for meals while at the office, and manipulating his wife's schedule using "union business" - and she was not ever on union business and a number of unethical things. A couple of our F/a's got together, documented everything by going into the office and reviewing all the records (that anyone in good standing can do) and got AFA National involved. He was kicked out of office, made to pay restitution and is the laughing stock of West. Plus he really ticked off the membership who now hold everyone above board on their union conduct. Thankfully the 2 we have now (Pres/VP) are above board.

 

[PITbull]

How many ETB trips are these people flying each month? Aren't they responsible for being in the office a certain amount of days/ hours per month? As long as they meet those requirements, can they use ETB? I think Pitbull said it equates to about 21 days a month in office? Well, that leaves 9 or 10 days free to fly ETB, correct? Am I missing something here? Why should they not have access to the ETB on those days off? I just don't understand that....
Thank you for any clarification....

Sure, they can use their days off to fly ETB, but what the hell is their days? Anyone see their schedule? Here's another issue, they never post their schedule, so they can fly at will and when they see a trip they want. What 105 rep who is being paid 105 fpl from union dues or company fpl is putting in 21 days? However, those who are flying ETB International (those trips are 3-day trips) can't possibly doing union work 21 days. In order to do this one has to be (a) Legal, with legal rest,( B) need at least 12 days. You can not be alleging to work 16 days, allege to work one day in a "home office" when there is a paid local office, and fly 3 days ETB. That puts you at 31 days a month. Do these folks ever go home? Get real. A rep who is paid full flight pay loss ( and you have to be designated as 105 flyer by the company)should not be using an excuse that they are working from home, and then flying ETB because a trip comes up that they want to fly. No rep should be flying on designated days they are collecting company or union fpl. I simply don't agree. When I worked in the union where there was a paid local office, paid by union members, anyone who recieved fpl had to come in the office the entire day until I told them they could leave to collect any union paid time. If a rep was paid full flight pay loss up to their option, they HAD to come in 5 days a week to be paid. Period.

In all my experience in union work, I have never, ever met anyone, anywhere, at anytime, work 30-31 days a month doing work. A line f/a can't be legal for this, and a union rep is taking union money and flying to augment their time where no line f/a can.

That was the old thread the monderator locked because it took its course this one is about the F.A.R. and the union officers violating it.

I have no idea why the moderator would close the original thread out. If folks are still discussing it, he/she should never have locked the thread. Appears pretty bias.

I didn't agree with the "close out" and was going to have the owners of the board close out at topic yet alow some topics that have over 300 replies and over 10,000 hits continue on and allow them to freely go to the next page.

 

[PITbull]

We had the same type of thing happening at West - our MEC president was doing the same thing + charging AFA for meals while at the office, and manipulating his wife's schedule using "union business" - and she was not ever on union business and a number of unethical things. A couple of our F/a's got together, documented everything by going into the office and reviewing all the records (that anyone in good standing can do) and got AFA National involved. He was kicked out of office, made to pay restitution and is the laughing stock of West. Plus he really ticked off the membership who now hold everyone above board on their union conduct. Thankfully the 2 we have now (Pres/VP) are above board.

Perhaps they can be examples for the East, and those who get elected to office by the members, which is the most trusted priviledged positon given BY the members FOR the members.

So you say they are working half days then taking an int'l trip out? Your word against theirs, I am afraid.

I think we should all take a step back here for a moment and see how hard Union people work for their membership. Believe it. I highly doubt they are sitting in their offices looking for ways to "work the system" to their benefit. They are dealing with grievances, terminations, supervisory meetings, CONSTANT phone calls regarding contractual infractions on the part of the company, etc.... Take it from me, it is an incredibly thankless position. Before you make it your lifes work to bring AFA70 to its knees, make sure have all of your ducks in a row. You may need their assistance someday.

If they are putting in their 21 days in the office, be it weekends, weekdays or whatever, ETB your heart out, I say! Enjoy!

Here's an epiphany for the ignornant...absolute power, currupts absolutely.

From what rock did you crawl from under....come into the day light, my friend. These folks who fly ETB ARE NOT putting in 21 days a month of union work.

Tell them to post their weekly schedules, and hold them to it.

Thank you, AFA70, for your hard work and dedication to this membership.

The minute they spout they are working around the clock, they are lying. When you hear this crap, even from the MECP, plan to take them out of office. Anyone who keeps them in office with their vote...take them out too.

I promise you this, when back on the line, their flight hours will not reflect 150-170 hours a month; not even one month out of a year.

Prove me wrong.