Iam Fleet Service topic 5/21- merged topic

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Edward

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The other topic is starting to go the wrong way so I'm going to close it & start a new thread. ALL US Fleet Service issues go here. Do not post until you've read the board rules at the top of the forum. So not make it personal. Personal remarks & off topic posts will be removed & the poster subj. to time off.

Moderator note:
The CMH closing is merged here. It belonged here to start with.
 
I hope the rest of you will remember what jester and the others have said when it comes to a new contract , you can't squeeze money out of a stone ... ( as in we're treading water as a company until there's some sort of turn around on the national level in the travel industry )


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I hope the rest of you will remember what jester and the others have said when it comes to a new contract , you can't squeeze money out of a stone ... ( as in we're treading water as a company until there's some sort of turn around on the national level in the travel industry )


OFF TOPIC COMMENTS DELETED BY MODERATOR

Freedom,
Wow the world really is coming to an end Because I couldn't agree with you more..
As far as contracts go . When you go into negotiations you don't just look at current economic conditions thats a tactic the company tries to use
when the economy is down . but when the economy is up they try and stall negotiations for as long as possible.
One thing that will be new in our negotiations is the membership will be given surveys and asked to submit to the district and President Delaney
and his team will negotiate what the MEMBERSHIP WANTS. That has never happened on the east side
 
Freedom,
Wow the world really is coming to an end Because I couldn't agree with you more..
As far as contracts go . When you go into negotiations you don't just look at current economic conditions thats a tactic the company tries to use
when the economy is down . but when the economy is up they try and stall negotiations for as long as possible.
One thing that will be new in our negotiations is the membership will be given surveys and asked to submit to the district and President Delaney
and his team will negotiate what the MEMBERSHIP WANTS. That has never happened on the east side


wow i'm shocked as well that we agree on the off topic union related issue i brought up but can't discuss ..i know that the SEIU has come out publicly against the issue , but then again i think a great many of their workers are part of the discussion ... i've also heard the AFL-CIO is against it ...

I've had private talks with a great many of our union brothers and sisters and i would say their postion mirrors my own sentiment ..i would also like to add that the vast majority of our workers are good updstanding people who are not in any way "bad ", "evil " or have "unsocial " views ...

if the SEIU, AFL -CIO can come out and take a stand on this issue , i think its time OUR union take a stand , and i advocate that we affirm in favor of it ..This is only going to end one way , i''d much prefer that we come out on the winning/just side of this ...
 
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I've had private talks with a great many of our union brothers and sisters and i would say their postion mirrors my own sentiment ..i would also like to add that the vast majority of our workers are good updstanding people who are not in any way "bad ", "evil " or have "unsocial " views ...

Who accused the workers of having these views? I don't remember hearing anything of that nature. :unsure:
 
OK... let’s see if I can illustrate this point of conceptualization while still keeping it relevant to Fleet Service, and the impending CBA negotiations.

First... I love the “blood from a turnip” adage that is getting freely thrown around in this forum by various detractors. These folks have a long history of attempting to undermine FLEET SERVICE/IAM progress. Fortunately, there are now alternate channels of communication in use that will supersede much of this.

Now... getting back to the “blood from a turnip” sound bite... the irony of this “corn ball” statement in this context is very amusing. Those that are aware of compensation practices for the airlines, along with that of other corporations in this country regarding their executives and officers will confirm this.

I fact...CEO’s and VP’s... along with all the senior officers have been performing the impossible magic of getting blood from turnips for decades!

Most, if not all of the compensation these individuals received are available for review in the public domain. It does not require a lot research to see that these individuals reaped, and continue to reap huge salaries and bonuses while the companies they were supposedly leading.... bleed red ink! I could go into all of the most recent hearings and investigations regarding this... but.... we would go way off topic.

In the meantime...understand this...FLEET SERVICE will remain diligent, and unwavering in obtaining an industry leading agreement in terms of compensation. No presented argument here will change this stance!

Ohhh... I almost forgot... I would like thank my desert dwelling friend for the ironic nautical advice.

So... reveals and refers...

ROABILLY
 
In the meantime...understand this...FLEET SERVICE will remain diligent, and unwavering in obtaining an industry leading agreement in terms of compensation. No presented argument here will change this stance!

ROABILLY

I hope you are saying this with confidence, or perhaps the help of a crystal ball... Do you really think The Company is going to match the top out pay of Southwest, which is about $26 per hour?? I hope so too! But I would be lying if I was confident. If the company ever agreed to such a generous raise to our compensation, it surely would eliminate ALOT of stations when it comes to outsourcing. That is too high a price to pay. Job Protection and a raise, now that is what I would diligently strive for. Shoot for the Gold Medal, because when it is all said and done, you might be lucky to be holding the Bronze Medal....
 
OK... let’s see if I can illustrate this point of conceptualization while still keeping it relevant to Fleet Service, and the impending CBA negotiations.

First... I love the “blood from a turnip” adage that is getting freely thrown around in this forum by various detractors. These folks have a long history of attempting to undermine FLEET SERVICE/IAM progress. Fortunately, there are now alternate channels of communication in use that will supersede much of this.

Now... getting back to the “blood from a turnip” sound bite... the irony of this “corn ball” statement in this context is very amusing. Those that are aware of compensation practices for the airlines, along with that of other corporations in this country regarding their executives and officers will confirm this.

I fact...CEO’s and VP’s... along with all the senior officers have been performing the impossible magic of getting blood from turnips for decades!

Most, if not all of the compensation these individuals received are available for review in the public domain. It does not require a lot research to see that these individuals reaped, and continue to reap huge salaries and bonuses while the companies they were supposedly leading.... bleed red ink! I could go into all of the most recent hearings and investigations regarding this... but.... we would go way off topic.

In the meantime...understand this...FLEET SERVICE will remain diligent, and unwavering in obtaining an industry leading agreement in terms of compensation. No presented argument here will change this stance!

Ohhh... I almost forgot... I would like thank my desert dwelling friend for the ironic nautical advice.

So... reveals and refers...

ROABILLY


My Dearest Mr. Roability,

I would have seemed to have raised your ire for which I must unfortunately retort. Just general thoughts and observations:

1) Kindly, you need to get over yourself, as you are not an executive, VP, CFO, CEO or even the junior financial analyst peering wistful from the corner office through floor to ceiling windows. Therefore, any connection between your wages and their salaries have little in common beside they both have pictures of dead Presidents upon the notes.

2) While you are inappropriately dismissive of Rent Sharing as an economic concept in your "blood from turnip" rant, it should be noted plenty of economic research analysis have determined it to be supportive as a wage determinant. Within the economic journal article, "WAGES, PROFITS, AND RENT-SHARING" by David G. Blanchflower, Dartmouth College and NBER; Andrew J. Oswald, Centre for Economic Performance, London School of Economics and Peter Sanfey, University of Kent, during the opening review on other scholarly pubications noted the following: "All find evidence for some kind of ability-to-pay effect upon wages. While most of these do not rest upon cross-section regressions, each draws upon data sets from highly unionized economies." It would appear to be a valid comparison as the ability-to-pay and our own "highly unionized" workplace to be compelling. Essentially, little profits = little raises, just ask the West ramp agents working under America West lousy profit margins and even worse pay scale for decades. http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/academic/oswald/wprs.pdf

3) For all the chest thumping, self-flagellattion bravado in the final analysis, this union is negotiating from a position of weakness due to our relative ease of replacement and the "blood from turnip" problem. As my granddaddy use to say, "#### in one hand and pray in the other and see what gets filled first," because that's all you have is a prayer something works in your favor. I just hope our uniforms won't consist of a hairshirt during the contract negotiations.

So Illuminates Jester.
 
I hope you are saying this with confidence, or perhaps the help of a crystal ball... Do you really think The Company is going to match the top out pay of Southwest, which is about $26 per hour?? I hope so too! But I would be lying if I was confident. If the company ever agreed to such a generous raise to our compensation, it surely would eliminate ALOT of stations when it comes to outsourcing. That is too high a price to pay. Job Protection and a raise, now that is what I would diligently strive for. Shoot for the Gold Medal, because when it is all said and done, you might be lucky to be holding the Bronze Medal....
bags ,
good to see you back youve been on the down low for a while. what you are going to see is the Membership will be deciding on what
we want not some Randy Canale sitting upstairs in office with Hemmingway leaving his negotiating team downstairs playing hang-man
 
1) Kindly, you need to get over yourself, as you are not an executive, VP, CFO, CEO or even the junior financial analyst peering wistful from the corner office through floor to ceiling windows.
Does one need to be? Aren't these basically the people farthest removed from the operational realities of the job we do? The same whiz kids feverishly trying to formulate practical analyses that successfully omit the human factor and yet can somehow work? The same people that are seemingly annoyed by us and all the things we do that make us so unlike the paper place-holding workers in their plans, models, and grand ambitions? The high priests of the quarterly report, their loyalty to profit secondary only to their own career ambitions? Don't get me wrong, I believe there are any number of positions in our economy that require such a marketable brand of sociopathic shrewdness, and I for one am proud that we've been able to accommodate quite a few of them here at US.

They look good in golf polos, and this is good for business.

2) While you are inappropriately dismissive of Rent Sharing as an economic concept in your "blood from turnip" rant, it should be noted plenty of economic research analysis have determined it to be supportive as a wage determinant. Within the economic journal article, "WAGES, PROFITS, AND RENT-SHARING" by David G. Blanchflower, Dartmouth College and NBER; Andrew J. Oswald, Centre for Economic Performance, London School of Economics and Peter Sanfey, University of Kent, during the opening review on other scholarly pubications noted the following: "All find evidence for some kind of ability-to-pay effect upon wages. While most of these do not rest upon cross-section regressions, each draws upon data sets from highly unionized economies." It would appear to be a valid comparison as the ability-to-pay and our own "highly unionized" workplace to be compelling. Essentially, little profits = little raises, just ask the West ramp agents working under America West lousy profit margins and even worse pay scale for decades. http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/academic/oswald/wprs.pdf

Economics. The Dismal Science. Did you know that economists have successfully predicted nine of the past four recessions? It's science.

A few minor details:

In principle I can see the point you're making in terms of ability-to-pay, although I submit there's much lost in trying to cross-analyze the highly idealized generic manufacturing firm of a 17 year-old scholarly publication (of which the latest sampled data is 24 years old) and a modern post-deregulation, post-9/11, great-recessional airline. All it is saying is that for certain firms, within certain models, with all things being equal, ability-to-pay does appear to be a wage determinant. But the airline industry is an odd duck, and ceteris paribus assumptions concerning a lot - or any- of the variables can render an entire model invalid.

I will agree that ability-to-pay is a wage determinant; I always thought that was quasi-obvious but hey, whatever. Be that as it may, this is not to say that it is the only or even the main wage determinant, it is simply one of the considerations that a firm must make in determining what it can afford or what it says it can afford or will be able to afford as it applies to employee wages. Fair enough.

However I think it's worth pointing out that ability-to-pay and willingness-to-pay are two different things, and there's no set criteria for what qualifies a firm as "able" or "unable", besides the conclusions and sentiments of those running it. Management being what is and having the goals it has and having demonstrated their negotiating style will likely never concede that it can comfortably accommodate pay raises; their discomfort at the prospect of paying higher wages is present regardless of projected revenues or cash on hand. Simply put, the company will always argue that for whatever reason it lacks the ability to pay higher wages.

Fares and travel demand are up for the summer, and unless I'm mistaken we're looking at the possibility of profit in Q2; couple this with the rate of unemployment having leveled off and steady economic recovery and we may not be in such a position of weakness one year hence.

What since the passage of the TA justifies fleet receiving a pay increase? We're one of the work group that has successfully integrated. Baggage mishandling is down. On-time metrics are up. Complaints are down. Don't know the numbers system-wide but we're running a safer operation here in PHX. We've suffered their draconian attendance policy and the out-farming of field stations. We've implemented their bag-scanning procedures and made them a working tool within the operation. And personally, I've been busting my ass as I do each day to get these flights in and out safely and on time and would appreciate more compensation as an acknowledgment of the work I've done and the experience I bring to the company by virtue of the work I've performed for them.

Their relative ability or inability to pay for this does not concern me as within my position it is a variable entirely out of my control, though I try to do what little I can within my role to make this airline seem legitimate and viable but alack, buzz buzz, I'm just a worker bee...

3) For all the chest thumping, self-flagellattion bravado in the final analysis, this union is negotiating from a position of weakness due to our relative ease of replacement and the "blood from turnip" problem. As my granddaddy use to say, "#### in one hand and pray in the other and see what gets filled first," because that's all you have is a prayer something works in your favor. I just hope our uniforms won't consist of a hairshirt during the contract negotiations.
Maybe so, maybe not. The game hasn't even started. Optimism might not be the safe bet but it is a lot more fun.
 
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Economics. The Dismal Science. Did you know that economists have successfully predicted nine of the past four recessions? It's science...

In principle I can see the point you're making in terms of ability-to-pay, although I submit there's much lost in trying to cross-analyze the highly idealized generic manufacturing firm of a 17 year-old scholarly publication (of which the latest sampled data is 24 years old) and a modern post-deregulation, post-9/11, great-recessional airline. All it is saying is that for certain firms, within certain models, with all things being equal, ability-to-pay does appear to be a wage determinant...

However I think it's worth pointing out that ability-to-pay and willingness-to-pay are two different things, and there's no set criteria for what qualifies a firm as "able" or "unable", besides the conclusions and sentiments of those running it. Management being what is and having the goals it has and having demonstrated their negotiating style will likely never concede that it can comfortably accommodate pay raises; their discomfort at the prospect of paying higher wages is present regardless of projected revenues or cash on hand. Simply put, the company will always argue that for whatever reason it lacks the ability to pay higher wages...

Fares and travel demand are up for the summer, and unless I'm mistaken we're looking at the possibility of profit in Q2; couple this with the rate of unemployment having leveled off and steady economic recovery and we may not be in such a position of weakness one year hence...

What since the passage of the TA justifies fleet receiving a pay increase? We're one of the work group that has successfully integrated... Baggage mishandling is down... On-time metrics are up.... Complaints are down. ...we're running a safer operation here in PHX... suffered their draconian attendance policy and the out-farming of field stations.... bag-scanning procedures and made them a working tool within the operation.... (And) busting my ass as I do each day to get these flights...

Maybe so, maybe not. The game hasn't even started. Optimism might not be the safe bet but it is a lot more fun.

CJ,

Forgive me for butchering your post, as I am not so computer savy to figure how to conduct multiple quotes from which to reply, as such I attempt to just edit the points for conciseness.

The "dismal science" ... people like Ostrom, Krugman, Prescott, Granger, and many Nobel Laureates in Economic Sciences might disagree even if less than precise. I think you are making the mistake in the predictive nature of economic versus the hypothesis testing of economics in large part due to the contemporaneous nature of predictions. For example, I could "predict" the final score of a football game if I knew in advance the number of turnovers, passing yards, rushing yards, etc., but yet, that information is not available until after the game, so instead forecasters attempt to estimate various metrics in order to predict an outcome. To continue the example, if I look at hypothesis testing in f(score) = turnovers, passing yards, rushing yards, etc. I can test which variables are predictive to the final score. Thus, it is valid research, but its predictive nature becomes suspect. As I use to tell my CPA friends, "They don't give Nobels for accounting." Strangely though you are forecasting a Q2 profit... did your accountant or economist tell you this?

In terms of using "dated' information, I would state the Rent Sharing concept has been confirmed over decades of research, such that much like a scienist does not need to confirm that water boils at 212F or 100C at sea level... it is an established fact which has been established many times. If you were interested current academic research, I am certain google would be your best option. Furthermore, I would disagree there is something unique regarding the airline industry and something magical which makes it exempt from the realities of no money to offer pay raises.

Finally, the best known of economic realities... supply and demand... Top level corporate executives are a relatively rare commodity to the number of bag smashers. Sure ramp agents are needed, then again so is water, but why is water so cheap relative to diamonds? Simple supply and demand as the water and diamonds paradox was first discussed by Adam Smith. This also relates to your dichotomy of "willingness to pay" and "ability to pay", why pay more for something commonly found in large quanities (unskilled labor)? Even if there was the willingness to pay, the ability to pay would would supercede any such desire... it is neccessary, but not sufficient.

In conclusion, while I can fully appreciate your efforts on the ramp, as I have worked at that same level, I realize that my pay is based upon the actions while a union. It is a violation of the CBA to provide an increase pay to you, while not offering the same to others who are not performing to your level of commitment. Sometimes A&B rewards were offered, but only a few actually win. It is the mediocrity of joining a collective, for which we should have all known when we signed on.

So Clarifies Jester.
 
Furthermore, I would disagree there is something unique regarding the airline industry and something magical which makes it exempt from the realities of no money to offer pay raises.

Finally, the best known of economic realities... supply and demand... Top level corporate executives are a relatively rare commodity to the number of bag smashers. Sure ramp agents are needed, then again so is water, but why is water so cheap relative to diamonds? Simple supply and demand as the water and diamonds paradox was first discussed by Adam Smith. This also relates to your dichotomy of "willingness to pay" and "ability to pay", why pay more for something commonly found in large quanities (unskilled labor)? Even if there was the willingness to pay, the ability to pay would would supercede any such desire... it is neccessary, but not sufficient.

I've gotta say, while I disagree, this was a great post.

That said, I'd like to address how I disagree with these two points. To the first, present financial situations do have a bearing on negotiations, but it is not absolute. In the first place, our CBAs are negotiated for a period of several years, years in which the situations of our airline can change. Secondly, the Company or Union (I've never known of a Union to do this, but it's possible) can delay a new contract changing the terms out for years. Both sides know this, they understand this, and they use it to their advantage. While it's entirely correct to say that US is not "well" financially at the moment, there is substantial reason, supported by the Companies material, to believe that things are turning around and that the current economic realities will be changing for the better at US. Because of this you cannot negotiate in the now.

As to your second comment, that rampers 'value' to the Company is based on supply and demand, I agree with it's theoretical correctness. You forget about one MAJOR difference, however. While we are "unskilled" labor in the sense that no substantial education is required, we are not without relevant skills. It would be exceptionally difficult to replace 3500 (or whatever the count is) rampers with contractors. Can it be done? Yes. NW did it with their mechanics, AS did it with their rampers. Can it be done well? Absolutely not. Looking at the mechanics, they have skilled labor already trained via possessing A&P certificates. Sure there are some Company specific details, but by and large the skills are identical and very easily transferable. At AS many of the ramp functions were taken over by CSRs. Ops and cargo are done by CSRs, not fleet. In addition, many of the former AS rampers, being laid off, hired on with the ramp contractor doing the exact same thing. This means that the new rampers only need to know how to toss bags, push planes, and dump lavs. The CSRs, already employees, handle all the computer systems and are already trained. Here at US these conditions do not exist with fleet. ANY new employee would need to attend either a two week class or , for contractors, differences training. Leads would need to do that and THEN the Lead training. Cargo in the three cities that have it would need to be taught to the replacing (presumed) contractors. In theory, you're absolutely right that there is a n abundance of unskilled labor right now looking for a job. How many of those, however, have the knowledge, skills, training, and experience to do it Day One? Very few, thus the supply of QUALIFIED unskilled labor that would be leaded is minimal.
 
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