WN discontinued service a few months back from BDL-PHL. rumor control has it that there is talk about dropping PVD-PHL service. seems WN cant compete with US in PHL which makes sense. any expansion in PHL.. the airline goes to the city of PHL and the city of PHL goes to US and asks if its okay.. believe it or not and thats a FACT. PHL doesnt need anymore domestic service and if WN wants to go international.. US could care less . its like Airtran aganist DL in Atlanta.. yeah a real dent
PHL EXPANSION?
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the gates that WN got in PHL last year were compliments of US. the city promised WN the world during the 2nd US bankrupcty. it didnt happen and US is now a major profitable player. the city went on its knees and asked US to compromise on the gate issue which in turn gave WN 2 extra gates. the growth of WN at PHL is basically in the hands of US. US controls the shots in PHL like WN controls it in BWI.
Flying Photog
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Plenty of airlines in plenty of airports don't use gates to full capacity, in order to keep other carriers from getting the gates. This is nothing new.
Really good point. I understand WN's logic in 2003 - move into PHL when US is weak. However, US and HP merged and now US is in a much better place to compete with WN.
Remember 1993 when WN landed in BWI? US owned BWI. WN took such a large market share that US was forced into the MetroJet gimmick - which failed. Finally, US de-hubbed BWI and conceded the competition to WN.
I think WN was expecting US to just "give up" on domestic runs also served by WN. A weak carrier wouldn't be interested in competing with a strong one when they are on the brink of destruction and liquidation - at least was the case then.
But US/HP is stronger now. They have more pricing power and more loyalty out west (WN's western connections are now highly competitive with the combined US system). The new E-Jets help US manipulate capacity, connections and frequency on short-jumps...
Bottom line, jetBlue, WN and AirTran took some gambles. They bet that Delta and or US wouldn't see through 2006 and they wanted to be in a possition to take over their capacity. It didn't work out, and now B6, FL and WN are struggling to reach for their black ink pens.
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thanks CO738. its all true and sorry that some wont admit it. business is still business. but WN will NEVER say that they failed in a market and will run the market at a loss just for the presence. they have the cash. like i said they pulled out of BDL-PHL and there is talk of pulling out of PVd-PHL. WN has run out of domestic markets and they are looking at international. they have to. Jetblue Airtran Spirit are into it and making no dents into the market. the stats speak for themselves.
Again, good point.
WN is also cutting capacity on PHL-PIT and PIT - MDW.
Now, here is WN's problem with the eastern seaboard:
A DAL based jet may fly 8 segments/day.... 137 seats at, say, an AVERAGE fare of $100/seat -- that is $13,700 per segment in fare revenue + cargo ops, or $109,600.00 max/day
OK, a LAS - PHL run takes all day - they might be able to squeeze in a LAS-SAN run into the day by grace of better turn times. So, 2 segments at an average fare of $150 ... errrr that's only a max of $41,100/day -- if you add a short hop (2 segments) $68,500 MAX PER DAY -- THAT IS A HUUUUGGGEEE LOSS IN REVENUE.
THIS IS WHY B6 CUT EAST-WEST CAPACITY!!!! SO THEY ADDED FLIGHTS TO THE ISLANDS!!! Guess what, similar block times, BUT HIGHER FARES. It's still not as good as 8 short-hops, but MUCH BETTER.
PLUS, WN runs very light loads... US's E-Jets, which manipulate CAPACITY, FREQUENCY and CONNECTIONS really hurts WN's competitive edge in PHL, even if their product is superior. PLUS, business travelers like the ideas of earning miles for upgrades for that big annual trip/vacation to Europe... WN does well in TX AZ CA for these reasons, but poorly in other markets.
I am waiting for someone to say they save money on over-head, landing fees, even snacks -- but this does not add up 50 Grand. Granted, I do not work in the airline industry (I wish I did and am trying hard, nor do I have an MBA - I just finished my undergrad work.) however, I understand how business works, and in a world on VERY slim margins, running a 73G across country doesn't work. This is why a 57 or 67 is a better choice.
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when Herb Kelleher said to the media when WN was going to PHL.. he was drinking from his famous Jack Daniels bottle and saying quote in the media.. "I LOVE PHILLY CHEESESTEAK".. yeah well US has the steak WN can have the cheese bread and any condiments you want. US will even serve it to you.
For $8, and it comes with animal cookies and chips.
Let me get something straight:
I "luv" WN's product. I "luv" their business model (pre-2000). However, WN is rarely the cheapest anymore. I had to book someone Houston - Gary, Indiana a few weeks ago. Logically, HOU - MDW is the best choice. However, WN HOU - MDW was $150/each way. UA IAH - ORD $168; AA HOU - ORD $157, IAH - ORD $142 and CO IAH - MDW $82.
Guess which one I booked?
Although the drive time is longer, I could not justify paying $136.00 to cut drive times home-airport-job site-airport-home.
I think WN would do well expanding in their traditional turf; COS, GSP, ABI, MFE, BTR, etc.
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btw US is serving the bread and cheese and condiments to that Philly cheesesteak since WN came to PHL. US has been serving WN for nothing.. oh just found out we charge 5.00 for inflight drinks. you may want to mention to HERB that no more freebies..you are only alotted 2 drinks at one time.. no no you cant have 5 at one time. just keep flying PHL-PIt flights empty so US crews and agents can deadhead easily because US flights are full....we appreciate the competition.. LOL.. yeah right
FrugalFlyerv2.0
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WOW - I guess for SW the end is near ... ... ...
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LOL. of course you will never see the demise of WN. they are making money but it werent for the fuel hedeging they would have shown a loss the 4 years. just that WN at PHL is a pipedream and WN management knows that. we die hards with US in PHL know the ropes, the truth and know what is what and what is not. we welcome competition in PHL. it brings even more customers to the airport but remember if you want something in PHL you need to talk to US first.. we call the shots. its like... HMM WN ASKS THE CITY OF PHL>> YOU WANT TO OPERATE MORE FLIGHTS> WELL I'LL GET BACK TO YOU WHEN I SPEAK TO=US+.
WOW - I guess for SW the end is near ... ... ...
Yeah, I noticed a complete LACK of SWA presence in this "discussion"
(oops, guess I'm not smart enough to ignore it, as well) :bleh:
One thing I'll say for this post, it has the highest % of innacurate/fabricated information probably ever posted in this Forum.
1. WN has not expanded in PHL because of the lack of gates and that will be remedied in the Fall when DL moves to another terminal and WN expands in Terminal E to an additional 4 gates - that's a FACT!
2. PHL has domestic annual O&D of over 18M in an cachment of over 9M - and doesn't need more domestic service???? That means the only way PHL is saturated is if all of those 18M where single trip/year travelers.
3. Why should WN drop PHL-PVD when they currently have 72% of the daily traffic of 718 passengers (approx. 359 each way)?
4. If WN started international services from PHL, they would not be flying to major airports like LHR, CDG, or any other major city airport which competes with PHL carriers (US, BA, LH, AF, etc..). Further, most of those carriers are flying full in peak season - and getting top fares - NOT LCC fares, because there is no competition. It's more likey WN would serve only secondary Euro airports and establish interline relationships with foreign LCCs, such as Ryanair, EasyJet, etc.. When Open Skies is implemented, there will be an exponential increase in the number available routes between the U.S. and Europe - enough for everyone - especially the LCCs. Lastly, the only reason WN would even choose PHL as an international gateway is because of it's current/growth international O&D and excellent international facilities. BWI would likely need to attract significant connecting domestic traffic to succeed, but would have far less international carrier competition, a much better logistical situation and certainly better regional (airport) support than at PHL - simply because BWI is desperate for international expansion.
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hey to SWFLYER. where do you get 72 pct of PVD PHL traffic is WN. you have one foot on Jupiter. that is not true. we at US in PHl know the knows and know the truth. weve been doing the PHL thing for over 60 years im sure you are a NEWBIE. brainwashed kid told everything is this and is that. not in PHL. and please we at US in PHL want you to go international so we can laugh when you are delayed or cancelled and your folks have no where to go but home. its not like PHL to MCO. you are talking 24 hours. and let me again respond about the gate issuees at PHL... WN GOES TO THE CITY AND THE CITY GOES TO US AND THAT IS HOW WN GETS TO EXPAND HERE.. sorry but true.. so take your philly cheesteak oh sorry US has the steak part.. you take your cheese bread etc and take it to terminal E or any other terminal. WE LUV having you here. we laugh when you are delayed or cancelled because of the contant ground stopf or 1-4 hours and you have your customers running to terminal A B C D F,, oh sorry we occupy 95 pct of the airport and they say please can you help us.. and we say sorry we cant we are FULL and making money go back to terminal E and work it out with them and they say I WILL NEVER FLY THEM AGAIN.. hmm ive heard that before
