Primaris?

[Just Plane Crazy]

Found this info? Has any one heard of this new airline?


New Premium Airline to Begin Flights Oct. 15

New all-business class airline Primaris says it has received final authorizations from the Department of Transportation and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and plans to commence flights Oct. 15.

The new Las Vegas-based airline will operate Boeing 757s in a four-abreast layout with service from Newark to Chicago Midway three times a day and Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) twice a day. The airline also will operate between Chicago Midway and LAX twice a day.

 

[jimntx]

There was a flurry of info on various message and bulletin boards a few months ago. I sent them a resume, but never even got an acknowledgement. This is once more an attempt to prove that there is a major sustainable market for premium cabin service and prices.

A 757 in all-F/C config is a lot of leather seats with individual IFE to fill on a regular basis. Particularly when the legacy carriers--such as AA--are offering F/C transcon fares at deep discounts from previous fares. Also, 2 flights a day from EWR to LAX does not offer the same flexibility as 12 flights a day from JFK plus 3 flights a day from EWR--and that's just AA.

Will they have interline agreements so that a passenger continuing on to some place they don't serve doesn't have to claim and re-check their bags? Don't know.
Even if they match AA, United, et al on price, I don't see how they can overcome the siren song of the established frequent flyer programs. People who travel F/C as a matter of course did not get (and keep) that kind of money by ignoring good deals. And, it was my experience working with F/C passengers at AA was that the AAdvantage program points were a major factor in their decision to book AA over another airline where they did not belong to the FF program.

Not saying it won't work, but it never has before.

 

[mweiss]

I think the plan would have a much better chance if they were, say, 737-700s. You're right that it'll take a lot of people to fill a 757. That was my first reaction.

 

[whlinder]

I've wondered whether a premium airline flying 767s with a layout of 2-2-2 (or even 3-3) would be able to be competitive. I guess it would come down to whether or not the CASM would be low enough to compete, and then price accordingly as the product should have a competitive advantage.

 

[jimntx]

30 or 40 years ago, the idea of a premium airline might very well have worked. Airline fares were high compared to other modes of transportation, and not that many people flew on a regular basis. There were a lot of people who would have paid extra for the cachet of not having to fly with the common folk.

Today, now that everyone flies, everyone realizes that the a/c is just a Greyhound bus with wings. It's not a lifestyle; it's not an adventure; it's transportation from Point A to Point B. And, that is not deserving in people's minds of a premium fare.

 

[mweiss]

30 or 40 years ago, the idea of a premium airline might very well have worked.

30 or 40 years ago??? Midwest Express was doing fine with it five years ago. I still suspect that an airline with the network of UA and the service of YX would do bang-up business.

 

[jimntx]

30 or 40 years ago??? Midwest Express was doing fine with it five years ago. I still suspect that an airline with the network of UA and the service of YX would do bang-up business.

And, where is Midwest Express today? My point was (and is) that the idea just doesn't work for the long term. Even Legend had good numbers to start, but once the novelty wears off, price becomes an issue again.

There are any number of reasons one can create for the failure of the premiums--lack of route structure, lack of frequency, predatory pricing by the majors (well, that one is valid)--but in the long run, they cost too much for what you get--transportation from Point A to Point B. Nothing more, nothing less. The people who can truly pay for this type of service on a regular basis are already flying on charter operations.

An analogy: My wife and I used to go to NYC 2 or 3 times a year to shop and see theater. On a couple of occasions we stayed at a hotel like the Plaza, but then we always went back to the Edison (where I began staying when I was 17 on my first trip to NYC). Both hotels offer a bed, clean sheets, clean bathroom, daily maid service. However, we could buy front orchestra seats for a first-run musical for just the difference in the daily room rates. And, we could walk to every Broadway theater from the Edison. And, the bagels at the corner deli were just as good and half the price of the ones sold on the Upper East Side.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The guys behind it are former AWA guys who went to National and blew all their money down the toilet doing a similar version of this doomed venture. Nice guys, but it more than likely won't work.

When has an airline like this worked? MGM Grand didn't work, Air One didn't work, Regent (or whatever one was based at IAH) flopped, McClain flopped.

Sounds like another airline where 8 or 9 folks make a crapload of money, and all the employees just get the crap.

 

[Just Plane Crazy]

McClain flopped.

Sounds like another airline where 8 or 9 folks make a crapload of money, and all the employees just get the crap.

Who or what was McLain?


And in regard to Primaris, what I heard is that Ex National Executives are behind this airline.

 

[funguy2]

30 or 40 years ago??? Midwest Express was doing fine with it five years ago. I still suspect that an airline with the network of UA and the service of YX would do bang-up business.

I completely disagree.

For one, Midwest has been around since 1984... Thats 20 years. And yet they have a very tiny hub-structure, and around 30 airplanes. If this could be done on a large scale, why didn't Midwest do it in the past 20 years? For comparison, America West has been around since 1983 and has 130 airplanes or so, and a much more developed network.

Two, the number of markets which could support such a service is very limited. Certainly could not be done on the scale of UAL. Frankly, I have always been surprised that MKE as a market could support such a service.

Three... Let's look at the retail industry. Wal-Mart, the famous discounter, is popping up all over the country in almost every kind of market (urban, suburban, rural, most areas of the USA, etc). Nordstroms is only in a select few cities, and select few locations within those cities with their high end product.

This is a niche, and a very small one at that. Plus, with the reduced cost of fractional ownership, things like NetJets, this is a niche that is feeling pressure on both ends, princing pressure from other airlines below, pricing pressure from NetJets above.

 

[mweiss]

For one, Midwest has been around since 1984... If this could be done on a large scale, why didn't Midwest do it in the past 20 years?

Because MKE doesn't exactly make for a huge O&D market. Try it from, say, ORD and see what happens.

For comparison, America West has been around since 1983 and has 130 airplanes or so, and a much more developed network.

Because PHX, unlike MKE, was a moderate market that was growing quickly.

Two, the number of markets which could support such a service is very limited.

Limited, yes. Very limited? I don't know that I'd go that far. My gut says at least 20 domestic airports have enough traffic to support it, provided it's networked through a hub...preferably DFW or ORD.

Three... Let's look at...retail. Wal-Mart...is...all over. Nordstroms is only in a select few cities...

Yes, but traffic among those cities should support it easily.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

They are National guys, but they were AWA guys before that. Kevin Lum and some other dude. Kevin is a great guy, but this plan is more than they can chew.

McLain was an airline run by Ted McClain, black 727's, used to run out of PHX and ORD and some others. Can't find a pic, but here is their schedule with their logo, which was on the tail, pretty planes, they were parked at PHX when I first started with AWA.

Oh, I did find a Microsoft Flight Sim version!

http://library.avsim.net/sendfile.php?Loca...e&ImageID=51852

 

[mga707]

McLain was an airline run by Ted McClain, black 727's, used to run out of PHX and ORD and some others.

McClain is in the running with Pride Air for the dubious honor of shortest-lived startup.
Service began 10/13/86, ORD-LAX and ORD-Rockford (just to keep the ORD slots). Rockford was replaced after a few weeks with ORD-PHX-LAX.
Flights were halted on 2/4/87 when the 727s were seized by the lessor for nonpayment (not a good sign), but resumed the next day--but only for a few more weeks. The whole thing collapsed on 2/23/87 when McClain filed for bankruptcy. Lasted just over four months.
(the book "Deregulation Knockouts" was used for the details above)

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Shortest lived startup is either Roots Air, in Canada or Swiss World, neither of them lasted a month!

 

[ngneer]

Just recently there was a new Irish discounter called JetGreen that folded after only a few days of operation. IIRC, they offered ridiculously low introductory fares (1 Euro) from Ireland to Spain and a lot of people took them up on it. The only problem was the airline folded before they could get back!

There have been a string of failed discounters over the past year in Europe. Here's a brief article about it.

Great Plains also folded recently after a brief life. They started service at MidAmerica St. Louis Airport in October, and offered flights to Chicago's Midway Airport, Dulles International Airport near Washington, D.C., and Tulsa, Okla. In November, the airline added aircraft to its fleet and expanded its flight schedule. But in early January, the airline cut flights to Chicago and reduced its schedule to Tulsa and Washington. On Jan. 23, the airline filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and suspended all scheduled flights effective the next day.