Profit Sharing.

[El Gato]

Here is an idea. Suppose we agree to concessions - not just measly ones, but the ones that ARE REALLY NEEDED. Work rule changes, more productivity, no benfit cuts but wage cuts(25%?). Something that would make all of this a bit more palatable in my eyes is the idea of profit sharing - lets say 20% of profits every year get shelled out to all. To me, this represents an incentive to work harder(for some this might be their first time actually working hard in life!), while being guaranteed the fruits of our labors. Southwest and JetBlue have it, and maintain a low wage scale as a result. Why can't we?

P.S. Someone posted on another board that WN rampers and ticket agents are making $20.00/hr. That's BS. All the ones I have met are down at $14.00/hr...tops. Only a lunatic would pay an employee $20.00/hr for something as simple as shucking bags or tickets.

P.S.#2 - Yup I am new here. I work in PIT for an airline....that's all I am allowed to say!(Thanks to our corporate masters).

 

[700UW]

WN's agents are not in PIT, so where did you meet them? Top out Pay for WN is $24 an hour.

US all ready has profit sharing in the CBAs and the key is you have to make a profit in order to get a payout.

And airline workers have the second leading occupational injury rate then anyother job except farming.

 

[local 12 proud]

Here is an idea. Suppose we agree to concessions - not just measly ones, but the ones that ARE REALLY NEEDED. Work rule changes, more productivity, no benfit cuts but wage cuts(25%?). Something that would make all of this a bit more palatable in my eyes is the idea of profit sharing - lets say 20% of profits every year get shelled out to all. To me, this represents an incentive to work harder(for some this might be their first time actually working hard in life!), while being guaranteed the fruits of our labors. Southwest and JetBlue have it, and maintain a low wage scale as a result. Why can't we?

P.S. Someone posted on another board that WN rampers and ticket agents are making $20.00/hr. That's BS. All the ones I have met are down at $14.00/hr...tops. Only a lunatic would pay an employee $20.00/hr for something as simple as shucking bags or tickets.

P.S.#2 - Yup I am new here. I work in PIT for an airline....that's all I am allowed to say!(Thanks to our corporate masters).

first you say "suppose WE agree to concessions" then later say" i work in pit for an airline......thats all im allowed to say" which is it? do you or dont you work for usair? and if so what exactly is your job title? southwest employees are some of the best paid in the industry, so that about ruins the theory of getting wages in line with the LCC carriers, unless of course we mean management. i will say the F/A at southwest are not compensated fairly, but then again the have the TWU! :blink:

 

[El Gato]

WN's agents are not in PIT, so where did you meet them? Top out Pay for WN is $24 an hour.

US all ready has profit sharing in the CBAs and the key is you have to make a profit in order to get a payout.

And airline workers have the second leading occupational injury rate then anyother job except farming.

WN agents are in CLE, BWI, ISP, BDL etc. I travel often on them.

Wasn't aware profit sharing was in the CBA's. Maybe it should be reevaluated?

Accidents happen on many jobs. That's what LTD and medical coverage are for. Has nothing to do with wages.

You say the top out pay for WN agents is $24.00/hr. Ok, you say it, but I disagree based on what WN agents have informed me. But still, they have a young workforce(not as young as B6 though), and much harder working.

Most of the jobs that are in the company are replacable. A ticket agent can be trained in a matter of days, the same for a ramper(some airlines like WN have agents as rampers too). A res agent as a career? Please. B6 has folks working res from their homes for a fraction of what US is paying(not to mention the price of renting an office building!).

Lately I have been hearing that people want to "kill the company". They scream "The concession stand is closed" and "Full pay to the last day". Well guess what? Soon it may be "the last day" if you have your way. What will you do then? You talk big now, and stick your chest out, but when push comes to shove, and you find that the unemployment doesn't cover you expenses, what will you do? Forget about finding another job in the industry - there are thousands of furloughed people in front of you in the line. To make matters worse, you know what an interviwer is going to say if they see a resume that has "USAIRWAYS" listed on it? They will say, "Your hands are smeared with the blood of a company that YOU chose to kill.....now you want me to let you in here so you can do the same? Get lost, UNIONISTA!".

But don't let me put you off. Go on. Kill the company AND the livelihoods of others. Pump your fist in the air and scream at the top of your lungs that "I won't give, I won't work!" and "Full pay to the last day". I know dozens of guys fresh out of school right now who will do your job and gladly for half your pay, AND work circles around you. Why? Because they have the fire in them, and you don't.

The inhumanity of one worker to another is far worse than the adversarial relationship between workers and management. h34r:

 

[700UW]

Here is a history lesson for you!

The unionized employees have GIVEN TWO ROUNDS of concessions all ready, this company squandered it, yes over $1.1 Billion and 27,000 jobs were given.

Maybe you should learn the facts before you post. This management team can't adhere to current contract language, the contracts were modified twice during bankruptcy. Dave could not lead himself out of a paper bag.

I for one won't give another penny to liars and ineptness.

 

[savyinvestor]

Sounds like he is an ALPA brother of another pilot on this board. Just won't admit it. Savy

 

[El Gato]

first you say "suppose WE agree to concessions" then later say" i work in pit for an airline......thats all im allowed to say" which is it? do you or dont you work for usair? and if so what exactly is your job title? southwest employees are some of the best paid in the industry, so that about ruins the theory of getting wages in line with the LCC carriers, unless of course we mean management. i will say the F/A at southwest are not compensated fairly, but then again the have the TWU! :blink:

local 12,
Yes.

WN employees are some of the best paid, but NOT the highest. In addition, only certain employees have what could be termed "rewarding salaries". WN operates on the notion that unless you are tough to replace, you are cheap. Pilots, ops, mechs are very well paid at WN. They are also MUCH harder workers than US folks. A WN captain picks a line, and flys it - around 75 to 80 hours a month usually. None of this reserve bidding or other contractual crapola. A US captain gets on average about 55 hours a month - do you think you can make a profit doing a 55 hour job for 80 hour pay? Get real.

No f/a at any airline is paid really well, but then again why should they? I know a 22 y.o. girl right now who is eager to work as an f/a for WN. She stands a good chance of getting in with them. Young, attractive, and well aware that all the "I am here to save your butt, not serve you" talk is a joke. It takes about 3 weeks to train a new f/a. She will be working for peanuts, but that is what she expects in the first place - peanuts for a monkey's job. Do what your told, work well, and get some freebees with the pay in the process. IT IS NOT A CAREER!!!! I used to think that no woman in her forties or fifties would be doing it at any airline, but USAirways proved me wrong. You have to question their motives on the surface, but then when you dig down a little deeper, you discover why some of these formaldehyde ladies are there....THE PAY. You see, US gives a ridiculously high amount of pay for some jobs that are functions anyone could do. If you compare a US ramper and a ramper from a contract company, say Ogden, you will see little difference between them. There is no "professionalism" or "integrity" because there doesn't need to be. It's a job any kid off the street could do. So why is the US guy getting $20/hr, while the stronger, younger, faster kid at Ogden is getting $6/hr? I suspect union wins in the past, but also just a lack of pride and a false sense of entitlement.

Listen, if you want to run an airline that MAKES money, you can't have a workforce that is lazy and overpaid. You want one that works fast, efficient, and for a square wage. And that is US's problem.

 

[Bandit]

You don't have a clue,what a c/s agent does.A flt xld ,do you think a ticket agent who has been trained in a couple of days can handle re-routes,trying to rebook pax on any flt to there destnation,when there is nothing to book them on everything is full.Like you said you are new.,before you start putting down other employees,try doing there job.

 

[tadjr]

P.S. Someone posted on another board that WN rampers and ticket agents are making $20.00/hr. That's BS. All the ones I have met are down at $14.00/hr...tops. Only a lunatic would pay an employee $20.00/hr for something as simple as shucking bags or tickets.

Might want to check this out !

and I'll take that apology whenever you're ready.

Just curious how long you think an agent or flight attendant should work in that chosen profession? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? Why do you think it should be a stepping stone instead of a lifelong career? Some of us actually like working for the airlines and chose to make a career of it because its what we want to do. Should I quit and go get a desk job in a cubical somewhere because my time is up here? Please explain your reasoning to me in more detail.

I'd also love to hear exactly how long you might have been with an airline if you were to be working for one and what "job" you might have chosen to temporarily perform. Would sure put a lot of perspective into your view of the airline business.

 

[El Gato]

You don't have a clue,what a c/s agent does.A flt xld ,do you think a ticket agent who has been trained in a couple of days can handle re-routes,trying to rebook pax on any flt to there destnation,when there is nothing to book them on everything is full.Like you said you are new.,before you start putting down other employees,try doing there job.

Once again, you don't get it. Whine, whine, whine about how SABRE is so tough, or the rigors of the job. Okay, I feel your pain - everyone has a rotten day at work. But the facts is that there are folks out there who would be HAPPY to do your job for half the pay, half the bennies, and work more hours and be more productive. If US fails, here is what will happen.

1) You will be unemployed, doleing off the system just like a welfare chisler.

2) Some 24 y.o. Britney lookalike will be doing your job at the same counter you once stood at for half your pay, and actually be able to crack a smile unlike most of our "funeral home workers".

3) I can only inagine you will be out there with all the other sadly deluded folks on the last day, holding up signs Charlie Bryan-esque that say "WE WON!!!". No, you lost. You lost your job, your friends jobs, and you gave it up just so you could feel good for a while. When you try to make your mortgage payments, or send your child to school, will you feel the same?

4) I have this image of some US workers going up and harrassing WN and B6 workers after all is said and done, and chastising them for "ruining the business" and "being a labor whore". If I was one of them, I would smirk at you and say "LOSER, I have a job. You don't. Get a job!". And get a life.

Listen, Siegel said in the webcast that if you don't like the way things are going here, then please don't kill the company, but rather use it as a platform to jump to another job or profession from. To me, this is the most humane thing he could have suggested. LEAVE. Get out. Don't destroy my job, but get your sense of insufferability and self entitlement out the door. There are jobs out there, but they sure as hell will look on you much more kindly if you are currently working and give the image of a worker who is agreeable, not a troublemaker or a "Pittsburgh unionista - concession stand is closed" type. NO company wants that, or needs it. Don't believe me? Goto Flint, MI sometime. They were just like you once. Cars are made in Mexico now, not Flint. :down:

 

[El Gato]

Might want to check this out !

and I'll take that apology whenever you're ready.

Just curious how long you think an agent or flight attendant should work in that chosen profession? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? Why do you think it should be a stepping stone instead of a lifelong career? Some of us actually like working for the airlines and chose to make a career of it because its what we want to do. Should I quit and go get a desk job in a cubical somewhere because my time is up here? Please explain your reasoning to me in more detail.

I'd also love to hear exactly how long you might have been with an airline if you were to be working for one and what "job" you might have chosen to temporarily perform. Would sure put a lot of perspective into your view of the airline business. [/quote]
If you are expecting an apology, you will be waiting till hell freezes over.

CWA will say whatever they can to pinch an extra dollar out of the union dues andmake themselves look good, look tough - "We care about you!".

If you think that being a ticket agent is a career, well I feel sorry for you. And I feel sorry for the company that has you. You are essentially a monkey typing into a computer terminal, doing repetitious tasks and trying to make it into something it isn't. Don't believe me? You may have noticed that you are being replaced lately by the kiosks. Yes, a machine is doing your job now - and a very good one too. The kiosk also doesn't whine or complain or say things like "Duh, I want to be a ticket agent for the rest of my life". It is a temp job, the rampers and f/as and ticket agents. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Ever hear of UPS? Ask yourself this, how does UPS keep the labor costs down? The answer is that for their shipping facilities and processing centers they hire part timers and temporary full timers. College boys work there to help pay off their tuition. I should know - I did it. I never expected, or HOPED that it would be a lifelong profession. What cretin wants to be operating a computer for customers, or throwing boxes forever? Oh, I forgot....YOU DO!

You just keep dreaming. Don't worry, you soon will be unemployed, and bitterly screaming "I want a job!" even though you HAD one that you murdered.

 

[BoeingBoy]

El Gato,

Let's assume that Dave gets everything he wants and mainline unit costs come down to the 6 cent area, or about 7.5 cents including fuel - WN's costs. Because it can be done - it just won't be pleasant for any employee here. What then?

Many, like you, apparently think everything will be rosy. You are wrong, my friend.

I can hear the wheels turning now. You're thinging "BoeingBoy is crazy". So let me explain briefly (I've been thinking of starting a thread with details & references - maybe I will).

Everybody - the folks that post on here, analysts, and management (by design?) focuses on mainline cost. But unlike WN, we are not just a mainline carrier - there's MAA, the wholly owned, and the affiliates. In 2003, 1/4 of our passengers made at least part of their journey on Express, 1/8 never saw a mainline aircraft. As the RJ's continue arriving, those numbers will just go up - if we're around long enough, half the passengers will ride Express aircraft and 1/4 or more will never see mainline.

So what, you say. Glad you asked. In the 3rd quarter of last year (the latest available from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) of the DOT, our SYSTEM unit cost was about 3.5 cents higher than mainline unit cost - those smaller planes tend to do that. The difference will tend to shrink over time as smaller turboprops are replaced with bigger RJ's, but it won't disappear. The best we can hope for is a 2 cent difference between mainline and system unit costs.

So, if mainline gets to 7.5 cents CASM, our system will be 9.5 cents CASM. Not competitive with WN, if fact about 25% higher than WN.

That is reality.

Jim

 

[mweiss]

Some of us actually like working for the airlines and chose to make a career of it because its what we want to do. Should I quit and go get a desk job in a cubical somewhere because my time is up here?

I get what the cat's trying to say. You're free to choose to make a career out of something you love to do. Hey, if someone loves to flip burgers, they're also free to turn that into a career. It's just that part of the choice is recognizing what comes with the territory of the job.

Part of the territory is a recognition that there are people lined up to replace you, and they're happy to do it at a lower wage. That's the law of supply and demand at work.

 

[El Gato]

BoeingBoy,
I agree it will NOT be rosy. People will have to get used to actually working together for a change, and extreme changes(which siegel mentioned) are going to have to be made, like dropping PIT, revamping marketing, selling the express carriers to Mesa, etc.

Mainline is not the problem, if you look at concessions effects on mainline only. You are taking into account the presence of express carriers - guess what. They are going to have to go. Mesa will take them. WN doesn't own props or classic RJ's for a very good reason - they drive up costs one way or another. Ditch 'em.

You SHOULD be concerned about MAA though. MAA is not express(despite the logo!) and is run under the mainline operating certificate. It is essentially a "B" scale inhouse.

 

[Bandit]

El Gato, next time your flt xld let the kisok take care of you.What is your career?If you think working for a airline is where the money is at,why are you here?Sounds to me like you can't find a career.Had a good job at UPS,what happen,now you work for a airline in pit.