Rise Of The Lcc's

[mweiss]

The Legacy carriers are:

American
Continental
Delta
Norhtwest
United
US Airways


And this defination was not crated by me.

Yeah, I know, but it seems like a definition without a definition, ya know what I mean? What makes these carriers genuinely different from the rest, in ways that still makes them more similar to each other?

Does that make sense?

 

[mga707]

Boeing's market share is eroding yet again. Spirit announced an order combination of Airbus A319 and A321 aircraft....

So long 717, and you might as well start furloughing 737 program staff. Even the LCC carriers are supporting the Airbus family; Jetblue, EasyJet, Frontier....

I'll see your four Airbus-ordering LCCs ,and raise you one:

Southwest, AirTran, ATA, WestJet, Ryanair.
B)

 

[mga707]

The Legacy carriers are:

American
Continental
Delta
Norhtwest
United
US Airways


And this defination was not crated by me.

Yeah, I know, but it seems like a definition without a definition, ya know what I mean? What makes these carriers genuinely different from the rest, in ways that still makes them more similar to each other?

Does that make sense?

How's 'bout: "US carriers that were extant prior to the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 AND were subject to the rules and regulations of the Civil Aeronautics Board.

That would exempt Southwest, since being intrastate at the time they were CAB-exempt, but one would still have to include Alaska under such a "legacy" definition.

 

[mweiss]

but one would still have to include Alaska under such a "legacy" definition.

Yup. That's where I got stuck too. It's the closest one I could come up with, but it still doesn't work. In the end, I can't figure out how to exclude Alaska without excluding Allegheny (and, arguably, Delta) as well.

 

[jimntx]

How's this for a legacy identifier? (I won't say definition.)

The legacy carriers are those, such as AA, DL, and U--who continue to carry the "baggage" of the regulation days. By baggage I mean the service to 2nd and 3rd tier stations (whether by mainline or regional division) that came with the territory during regulation days. "You can have the NY-LAX slot, IF you will also provide service on the commercially important ORD to Ashtabula corridor." It was of course pure coincidence that the route examiner was from Ashtabula, and his mother had been complaining about having to catch the bus to Cleveland or Pittsburgh in order to get her flight to Florida. Or the route examiner was getting pressure from the Congressman who got the funds appropriated to build the Ashtabula International Airport and wanted something bigger than Piper Cubs flying in there.

I think this sort of quid pro quo in the day was one of the primary reasons that the hub and spoke system emerged. Now, the rise of SW does not belie that argument. Granted they are a point-to-point carrier, but just like the other LCCs, they cherry-pick the cities they serve and were never required to provide service to marginal markets in return for a desirable route authority.
Just a thought.

 

[mga707]

How's this for a legacy identifier? (I won't say definition.)

The legacy carriers are those, such as AA, DL, and U--who continue to carry the "baggage" of the regulation days. By baggage I mean the service to 2nd and 3rd tier stations (whether by mainline or regional division) that came with the territory during regulation days. "You can have the NY-LAX slot, IF you will also provide service on the commercially important ORD to Ashtabula corridor." It was of course pure coincidence that the route examiner was from Ashtabula, and his mother had been complaining about having to catch the bus to Cleveland or Pittsburgh in order to get her flight to Florida. Or the route examiner was getting pressure from the Congressman who got the funds appropriated to build the Ashtabula International Airport and wanted something bigger than Piper Cubs flying in there.

I think this sort of quid pro quo in the day was one of the primary reasons that the hub and spoke system emerged. Now, the rise of SW does not belie that argument. Granted they are a point-to-point carrier, but just like the other LCCs, they cherry-pick the cities they serve and were never required to provide service to marginal markets in return for a desirable route authority.
Just a thought.

I think you gave it a good shot, but not quite.
Your "identifier" would really only apply to US Airways, as they are the only so-called "legacy" carrier that is directly decended from one (or more) of the original postwar Local Service carriers.
By the final decade of regulation (1968-78), the then-Trunk carriers had sucessfully shed nearly all of their "2nd and 3rd tier" stations (I do like your terms!) to the Local Service carriers. While there were still exceptions (United to Elko and Ely, for example), for the most part the Local Service airlines had grown throughout the 50s and 60s on these Trunk castoffs.
While many of the "legacies" do indeed have Local Service airlines in their bloodlines (all of those NW DC-9s that were originally delivered to Bonanza, West Coast [and subsequently to Hughes Airwest], North Central, and Southern, for example), US is the only surviving legacy with no pre-deregulation Trunk carrier roots. It's roots are all Local Service, with the main Allegheny bloodline joined by that of Lake Central, Mohawk, and Piedmont.

Just for clarification, in 1978 the Trunk carriers were:
American
Braniff
Continental
Delta
Eastern
National
Northwest
TWA
United
Western
(Pan Am had no domestic routes at that time)

At that time the Local Service carriers consisted of:
Allegheny
Frontier
Hughes Airwest
North Central
Ozark
Piedmont
Southern
Texas International
...and a latecomer, the short-lived Air New England, much smaller than the others.

the Alaskan (Alaska, Wien, Reeve, and the smaller 'bush' operators) and Hawaiian (Aloha, Hawaiian) operators were considered a separate category.

 

[jimntx]

[I think you gave it a good shot, but not quite.
Your "identifier" would really only apply to US Airways, as they are the only so-called "legacy" carrier that is directly decended from one (or more) of the original postwar Local Service carriers.

Well, I remember as late as the 70's that to travel on Delta from Houston to Birmingham, I could go IAH to Shreveport, change planes to a flight inbound from Dallas and continue to Birmingham with one stop in Jackson, MS.

American required a change of planes in New Orleans, but they served BHM from MSY--no longer. I could also go on Eastern this routing. Interestingly enough, this is the Southwest route today from HOU, but it is a direct flight with one-stop at MSY.

And, this was all mainline flying.

Today service to Shreveport or Jackson is only via AE or DL Connection through DFW. CO serves BHM nonstop from IAH with both mainline and CoEX. AA serves BHM only from DFW, but at least for now it is still mainline.

so, at least in this part of the country, the trunk carriers were doing some point to point.

 

[jimntx]

[I think you gave it a good shot, but not quite.
Your "identifier" would really only apply to US Airways, as they are the only so-called "legacy" carrier that is directly decended from one (or more) of the original postwar Local Service carriers.

Well, I remember as late as the 70's that to travel on Delta from Houston to Birmingham, I could go IAH to Shreveport, change planes to a flight inbound from Dallas and continue to Birmingham with one stop in Jackson, MS.

American required a change of planes in New Orleans, but they served BHM from MSY--no longer. I could also go on Eastern this routing. Interestingly enough, this is the Southwest route today from HOU, but it is a direct flight with one-stop at MSY.

And, this was all mainline flying.

Today service to Shreveport or Jackson is only via AE or DL Connection through DFW. CO serves BHM nonstop from IAH with both mainline and CoEX. AA serves BHM only from DFW, but at least for now it is still mainline.

so, at least in this part of the country, the trunk carriers were doing some point to point.

 

[mweiss]

mga, IIRC PSA had gotten interstate route authorities as a local around 1978, just before dereg.

jim, I think those were more milk-runs than point-to-point as we know it today. Nobody really does the milk-runs anymore.

 

[mga707]

mga, IIRC PSA had gotten interstate route authorities as a local around 1978, just before dereg.

While PSA had initiated their first-ever interline agreements in 1977-78 with AA, TW, and UA (permitting joint ticketing), their first scheduled services outside of California started on December 15, 1978, to LAS and RNO. Not coincidentally, this was the day that the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 took effect.
IIRC, Braniff started service to more than 30 new cities on that same day (sowing the seeds of their doom from overexpansion).

 

[mga707]

Well, I remember as late as the 70's that to travel on Delta from Houston to Birmingham, I could go IAH to Shreveport, change planes to a flight inbound from Dallas and continue to Birmingham with one stop in Jackson, MS.

American required a change of planes in New Orleans, but they served BHM from MSY--no longer. I could also go on Eastern this routing. Interestingly enough, this is the Southwest route today from HOU, but it is a direct flight with one-stop at MSY.

And, this was all mainline flying.

Today service to Shreveport or Jackson is only via AE or DL Connection through DFW. CO serves BHM nonstop from IAH with both mainline and CoEX. AA serves BHM only from DFW, but at least for now it is still mainline.

so, at least in this part of the country, the trunk carriers were doing some point to point.

You are certainly correct that the trunk carriers did plenty of point-to-point flying prior to deregulation.
Airports like SHV and JAN had mostly mainline flights until quite recently, really until the advent of RJs.
The cities that the Trunk lines passed off to the Local Service carriers were smaller ones such as Texarkana, Alexandria, or Meridian (to stay in your area of the country), all of which were originally mainline Delta stops. Delta even kept a few mainline flights into Monroe until quite recently!
Incidentally, AA never served MSY prior to deregulation. It was one of the first half-dozen or so new cities added in January 1979, at the start of the new era.

 

[motnot]

The main identifier of the legacy airlines at this point is a legacy fare structure. They doggedly refuse to let go of this anachronism because their costs are too high to allow them to implement a flatter, simpler fare structure systemwide. That is, they could have a flatter, simpler fare structure systemwide, but not at the prices that the lower-cost carriers are setting.

So, in essence, their higher cost structures set them apart as legacy carriers too. That can be attributed to having older, more tenured workers, but also to a lack of cost discpline. After all, Southwest is over 30 years old and America West 20 years.

 

[Segue]

JPC, I applaud your incisive grasp of the obvious.

The problem is, too many people are unable to grasp the obvious - hence the problems the unions and legacy carriers find themselves in now!!!

 

[Whadayano]

I think Motnot is correct, and another way is what they are not--legacy airlines are not primarily point to point, not single class of service (and yeah Airtran and AWA have a front cabin, but it's mostly the seat that defines the difference), not 2 fleets or less, and can't say they were never petitioners before the CAB. Okay, so many double negatives there I can't follow my own English, but I think you'll get the gist of it.