Rome Flight returns to PHL

[dariencc]

You are 100% correct, it was the Captain's call. I know because I was one of the mechanic's working that flight. One of the F/A's I was talking to said that they timed out at 10;30pm, but their dispacther told them that they didn't unitl 11:30 and the pilots were good until 1:30am.

Please explain the circumstances under which the front end and back end crews, who checked in at the same time for this trip, would run out of duty time at the different times you have described. This makes no sense at all.

 

[AP Tech]

Sorry to ruffle your feathers as I did not realize you were on the aircraft privy to all the info. The personal character attack is unwarranted though.......

 

[ClueByFour]

Not true. The MEL requiremments for navigational systems on ETOPS flights are not related in this case to being "in the air and on it's way." They are contingent upon whether or not the aircraft has entered NAT track system airspace. In this case, the aircraft had not. Therefore, it was not authorized to commence North Atlantic operations with this malfunction.

Nothing optional about it. The Captain made the right call.

With my piddly little SEL with the IFR ticket I've never thought about NA ops, but here is the track:

http://map6.flightaware.com/flight_track_m...time=1175653320

How far off the coast does one have to before having entered the NAT airspace and oceanic control?

 

[supercruiser]

Sorry to ruffle your feathers as I did not realize you were on the aircraft privy to all the info. The personal character attack is unwarranted though.......

dariencc is correct. If it was not legal to enter NAT airspace with the failure that occurred, I don't know of any intl. pilot at this airline that would do it EVER, either yesterday, today, or tomorrow. I'm also positive that dispatch was also consulted before the turnback. Your words of "yeah right" show your true ignorance of North Atlantic operations. You stick to fixing them and we'll stick to flying them.

supercruiser

 

[BoeingBoy]

How far off the coast does one have to before having entered the NAT airspace and oceanic control?

It would depend on what tracks were in use that night, since that would determine the jump-off fix. The fixes are still available in the FAA advisory archive but I don't know which one that flight was filed for nor do I still have my North Atlantic chart anyway.

Jim

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Can they fly straight across the Atlantic or do they have to do a circle route( Like near Greenland and Iceland)?

Also another dumb question, why do they call Greenland where it is almost freezing all the time?

 

[allstrike]

You then take the 333 that is malfunctioning and work on it the rest of the night to try and get it ready to the 9:30am departure to PR.

Then in the mean time the rest of the airline sits and waits to see if it gets fixed or not.If it does great if not,aw well we will just reshuffle everything on a moments notice from maint and everything will be fine..not

Dont work that way....would If you had 10..20 a/c but not hundreds...all those a/c on line already have there maint scheduled for the next night...what now..ooops there at a differant station...its not that simple.Wish it was but its not.

 

[allstrike]

Hey Joe, Don't you know that we are CARGO!!! Just the self loading kind and honestly we probably generate less revenue with a full belly.

I can see bob in box now

Sorrry Bob couldnt help it...

 

[BuffaloJoe]

I can see bob in box now

Sorrry Bob couldnt help it...

I thought the Boxes were for the meal service. B)

 

[AP Tech]

. Your words of "yeah right" show your true ignorance of North Atlantic operations. You stick to fixing them and we'll stick to flying them.

supercruiser

Thanks boys for the correction......next time it happens I will be sure and document it!!!

 

[brown]

Yea right!!!!

Agreed

 

[hula-flyguy]

Please explain the circumstances under which the front end and back end crews, who checked in at the same time for this trip, would run out of duty time at the different times you have described. This makes no sense at all.

Pilots have an 18 hour clause, f/a's do not. They are required to go to 16. Contractually f/'a were out of time at 2330. If they chose to they could waive it HOWEVER,it is a violoation of their contract and they should not ever be asked to do that. If they chose to, fine, but they should never be asked by the company to do so.

 

[LongTimeF/A]

Pilots have an 18 hour clause, f/a's do not. They are required to go to 16. Contractually f/'a were out of time at 2330. If they chose to they could waive it HOWEVER,it is a violoation of their contract and they should not ever be asked to do that. If they chose to, fine, but they should never be asked by the company to do so.

there is no WAIVE.. when your illegal, your illegal.. When F/A's go over, it's usually because they don't know the contract, or they're intimidated to speak up...

 

[computer guy]

Then in the mean time the rest of the airline sits and waits to see if it gets fixed or not.If it does great if not,aw well we will just reshuffle everything on a moments notice from maint and everything will be fine..not

Dont work that way....would If you had 10..20 a/c but not hundreds...all those a/c on line already have there maint scheduled for the next night...what now..ooops there at a differant station...its not that simple.Wish it was but its not.

In the past US has used the SJU 333 as a TA sub instead of it undergoing maint or just sitting in PHL. They end up subbing an A320 for that flight. So while it is not an ideal solution, it is just a modification of what US has done in the past.

In any event based on the additional information provided, it is immaterial. US knew or should have known that when that flight was recalled there was a chance the crew could have gone illegal before the issue was resolved.

This comes down to management and how they do crew scheduling. There is no reason to operate with such thin margins where you basically are counting on everything going right day after day. The margins have to be just big enough to cover some unforseen circumstances, otherwise the path will only lead to disaster.

 

[PHL]

Can they fly straight across the Atlantic or do they have to do a circle route( Like near Greenland and Iceland)?

Also another dumb question, why do they call Greenland where it is almost freezing all the time?

They fly the most direct route, also accounting for prevailing winds. Typically, that does go up over Greenland, South of Iceland and into Northern UK. Just look at a round globe and it becomes apparent how much shorter it is to do that route, versus just going directly East/NE over the Atlantic. They also need to have landing sites that fit the ETOPS requirements.

There are two prevailing stories as to why the icy land mass is called Greenland...

1.) An Icelandic settler found it and named it as such to direct people there and keep them away from his home country, Iceland. Likewise, Iceland would have been named as such for the same reason (to steer people away from the "oasis" of the Atlantic).

2.) The climate was much warmer hundreds/thousands of years ago and, thus, was green.