Second Amendment -- Say goodbye to your guns?

[local 12 proud]

Dell...what's a guy got to lose if he tells you what you want to hear - even if it's wrong? I mean, torture me enough and I'll tell you Al Qaeda was using Saddams bathroom to build nukes, and Abduhl the fisherman is a terrorist. You heard what you wanted...and the extra info? A wild goose chase -

KC, stop for a moment and think, put yourself in a terrorist shoes who has been captured and thinks by throwing anything out there will save your (his) skin is gonna work. Do you actually think the interrogators have'nt thought of this scenario? Do you actually think the one being waterboarded is stupid enough to give false information? Who is gonna come to his aid?

When you think life is about to leave your body you will spill your guts!

 

[Garfield1966]

So if this issue of Habeas Corpus irked you so much....curious....how many of your rep's in Congress and Senate did you contact and what was their response?

And this hoopla over waterboarding....you need information...WTF.Looks like its rather effective...what that one clown lasted something like 35 seconds and hes real cooperative now.Hmmm.

Spamed the lot of them and all I got was a form letter saying "thanks for your concern and we will look into it". In other words......F^&k off.

 

[Garfield1966]

I will hit the online enclyopedia to recheck my dates, though I do not belive I am wrong.

Let me know how that works for you. I did not pull those dates out of my ass btw.

 

[Garfield1966]

KC, stop for a moment and think, put yourself in a terrorist shoes who has been captured and thinks by throwing anything out there will save your (his) skin is gonna work. Do you actually think the interrogators have'nt thought of this scenario? Do you actually think the one being waterboarded is stupid enough to give false information? Who is gonna come to his aid?

When you think life is about to leave your body you will spill your guts!

Whether or not it is effective (which is debatable) is not really what is at issue. The issue is whether or not it is right for a nation that promotes freedom and justice for all to be torturing prisoners or war. The police are not allowed to torture a suspect to get information out of them (even of someone else's life is at risk) because the US Constitution forbids it. Not only that but our collective moral conscience forbids it.

Secondly, if you support the torturing of US held prisoners of war, then I can only conclude that when a US soldier is captured and tortured, you will not take issue with that either. I realize that our soldiers will in all likely hood be treated very poorly at best and not nearly as well as we treat US POW's but when our soldiers are tortured, and we cry out as a nation that it is wrong to treat them in such a fashion, how will that argument stand up against the fact that we do the same?

If the US wants to be an example for freedom then we have to be willing to pay the cost, if you want the US to slum it with nations such as China, Iran and N Korea then by all means go for it but do not be surprised when people you are trying to "help" and nation build turn from the US and do not trust the US. A nation has to lead by example. We cannot unilaterally change the rules of engagement to suit our needs not not expect others to not to do the same.

 

[local 12 proud]

Whether or not it is effective (which is debatable) is not really what is at issue. The issue is whether or not it is right for a nation that promotes freedom and justice for all to be torturing prisoners or war. The police are not allowed to torture a suspect to get information out of them (even of someone else's life is at risk) because the US Constitution forbids it. Not only that but our collective moral conscience forbids it.

Secondly, if you support the torturing of US held prisoners of war, then I can only conclude that when a US soldier is captured and tortured, you will not take issue with that either. I realize that our soldiers will in all likely hood be treated very poorly at best and not nearly as well as we treat US POW's but when our soldiers are tortured, and we cry out as a nation that it is wrong to treat them in such a fashion, how will that argument stand up against the fact that we do the same?

If the US wants to be an example for freedom then we have to be willing to pay the cost, if you want the US to slum it with nations such as China, Iran and N Korea then by all means go for it but do not be surprised when people you are trying to "help" and nation build turn from the US and do not trust the US. A nation has to lead by example. We cannot unilaterally change the rules of engagement to suit our needs not not expect others to not to do the same.

The rules changed on 9/11, I bet you were having a martini at your favorite gay bar that day and it must have been something that America just deserved in your liberal loving mind. If we need to torture to save AMERICA, then by GOD Im for it!

Move to your favorite socialist country if it offends you!

 

[delldude]

Spamed the lot of them and all I got was a form letter saying "thanks for your concern and we will look into it". In other words......F^&k off.

Well then Gar...you have my respect for trying to effect change.

 

[KCFlyer]

KC, stop for a moment and think, put yourself in a terrorist shoes who has been captured and thinks by throwing anything out there will save your (his) skin is gonna work. Do you actually think the interrogators have'nt thought of this scenario? Do you actually think the one being waterboarded is stupid enough to give false information? Who is gonna come to his aid?

When you think life is about to leave your body you will spill your guts!

Now for the important part...if you really DON'T have any information to spill...you'll spill whatever you think your interrogator wants to hear.

 

[Garfield1966]

The rules changed on 9/11, I bet you were having a martini at your favorite gay bar that day and it must have been something that America just deserved in your liberal loving mind. If we need to torture to save AMERICA, then by GOD Im for it!

Move to your favorite socialist country if it offends you!

Why is it that you resort to insults when you cannot present an argument.

To infer that I believe that the nearly 4,000 people deserved to die is merely a stupid comment by someone who has nothing better to say.

If you feel it is OK to torture that is your prerogative. Mr McCain and numerous others have said that it is not alright. Is Mr McCain a liberal who should move to another country as well? One of th freedoms that we still enjoy in this country is the right to disagree with our government and to voice that disagreement publicly. Perhaps if you disagree with that you are the one who should move to a country that is more in line with your belief.

I for one do not want to see our soldiers tortured and when we stand up to declare it immoral and wrong only to have it tossed back in our face because we have done those same things. I would like to think that we are better than that.

 

[delldude]

Secondly, if you support the torturing of US held prisoners of war, then I can only conclude that when a US soldier is captured and tortured, you will not take issue with that either. I realize that our soldiers will in all likely hood be treated very poorly at best and not nearly as well as we treat US POW's but when our soldiers are tortured, and we cry out as a nation that it is wrong to treat them in such a fashion, how will that argument stand up against the fact that we do the same?

For the most part,thats the way it is in the real world Gar....ask John McCain or any of the US soldiers captured in the ME...(oh I forgot...they decapitated them after torturing them.....) or ask any soldier what they taught them about being captured.....SOP.

Its not that I don't take issue with our boys being tortured...its a simple fact of war and I can deal with it.

 

[local 12 proud]

Why is it that you resort to insults when you cannot present an argument.

To infer that I believe that the nearly 4,000 people deserved to die is merely a stupid comment by someone who has nothing better to say.

If you feel it is OK to torture that is your prerogative. Mr McCain and numerous others have said that it is not alright. Is Mr McCain a liberal who should move to another country as well? One of th freedoms that we still enjoy in this country is the right to disagree with our government and to voice that disagreement publicly. Perhaps if you disagree with that you are the one who should move to a country that is more in line with your belief.

I for one do not want to see our soldiers tortured and when we stand up to declare it immoral and wrong only to have it tossed back in our face because we have done those same things. I would like to think that we are better than that.

Gar, believe it or not there are some in this country who take that stance. If your not one of them, then disregard my statement.

War is not meant to be sterile, when we capture an enemy combatant who may or may not have vital information that will save lives it is our duty to extract that information. Waterboarding is mental more than physical, the person feels like he is drowning but of course he is'nt. Its not like we're pulling fingernails out with a pair of pliars, or attaching electrodes to his gentials and zapping him.

Our captured soldiers get more than tortured, they usually get beheaded and dragged thru the streets for the whole world to see.

 

[Gilding the Lily]

Gar, believe it or not there are some in this country who take that stance. If your not one of them, then disregard my statement.

War is not meant to be sterile, when we capture an enemy combatant who may or may not have vital information that will save lives it is our duty to extract that information. Waterboarding is mental more than physical, the person feels like he is drowning but of course he is'nt. Its not like we're pulling fingernails out with a pair of pliars, or attaching electrodes to his gentials and zapping him.

Our captured soldiers get more than tortured, they usually get beheaded and dragged thru the streets for the whole world to see.

It is a bit odd, however, when we think back a few years and realize that we tried, convicted, and killed people because they committed, among other things, waterboarding on our soldiers.

You are right when you say "times have changed." THEY SURE HAVE.

 

[Garfield1966]

For the most part,thats the way it is in the real world Gar....ask John McCain or any of the US soldiers captured in the ME...(oh I forgot...they decapitated them after torturing them.....) or ask any soldier what they taught them about being captured.....SOP.

Its not that I don't take issue with our boys being tortured...its a simple fact of war and I can deal with it.

And yet McCain is still against torture. Being one who has survived through it, I tend to give his opinion quite a bit more weight than the service avoiding hammer heads who are advocating it's use.

Local
There are people who think it is alright to bomb abortion clinics, beat up people with a different sexual preference, subjugate people with a different skin color. What's your point? Do you actually think these nut jobs are in any way reflective of main stream america? There are fringe idiots, groups in every walk of life.

As for water boarding, according to the people who execute water boarding and those who have gone through it you are drowning. The physical stress it causes on the body can be irreversible. The terror it causes can also be debilitating. Dr Allen Keller testified before Congress.

Statement by Allen S. Keller, M.D.

The fact that McCain was there and experienced it carries a lot of weight with me. If you think you know better, goody for you.

 

[delldude]

As for water boarding, according to the people who execute water boarding and those who have gone through it you are drowning. The physical stress it causes on the body can be irreversible. The terror it causes can also be debilitating. Dr Allen Keller testified before Congress.

That's the idea Gar...and it works.

War is quite debilitating in itself...so whats your point?

Don't be such a pussy.....

Merry Christmas

 

[Garfield1966]

That's the idea Gar...and it works.

War is quite debilitating in itself...so whats your point?

Don't be such a pussy.....

Merry Christmas

Can I be there when you tell that to Mr McCain? I have not seen an old fashioned whooping in a while. I'll call 911 for you after he is done, assuming there is anything left.

 

[MMB]

As for water boarding, according to the people who execute water boarding and those who have gone through it you are drowning

I have gone through it.
The point is not to get information thru 'If you tell me we'll stop' methods. The point is to:
1. Make it very clear that you have *no* control, and
2. Get you to a point of physical and emotional exhaustion.
Nobody is smart enough to maintain a lie through repeated questioning by different interrogators and different formats. If you are exhausted it is harder, and if you are also stressed it is nearly impossible. The threat of a second experience on a water board adds a lot of stress.
By comparing your responses, both verbal and non-verbal, against your own responses from other sessions and against responses of other detainees, they can weed out 99% of the BS and get very accurate information.